Self-love VS. Self-hate

[Killary]

Before reading to the bottom, answer the poll. You might be surprised.

I have had many debates with female friends about this. I am fierce about my stance on it, and was curious to see what others think.

My take on it: Females are conditioned by society and media from a young age to be unhappy with their bodies and appearance. It is more socially acceptable at the lunch table to announce that you think you are 'fat' or 'gross' than it is to announce that you are happy or satisfied with your appearance and your body. I call it the 'Diet Coke Syndrome'.

A friend of mine has a sister that is 13. This past weekend, I brought over a Halloween cake, and she declined a wedge, saying to me, "I can't eat that, I don't want to be fat." I asked her if she thought she was fat, as she is a perfectly healthy weight and IMO could stand to gain a few pounds. "Yeah," she replied, "I'm starting to put on weight. It's so annoying. I wish I could just eat a cookie." Assurance got me a rolling of the eyes. When I questioned my friend, she shrugged and explained that her sister has taken to Diet Coke and eating lettuce every day, along with stealing makeup from her pouch to put on at school, out of her Mother's supervision.

So, as DCS goes, you will get fat if you don't start dieting in Middle School and you're not pretty enough NOT to wear makeup.

I take the term 'conceited' as a term of endearment. By definition, it suggests that one is overly confident in themselves and/or their abilities. What word, then, would you use to describe someone who loves themselves all around, without being thought of as vain? Self-love? Here's what the dictionary has to say about Self-love:

1. the instinct by which one's actions are directed to the promotion of one's own welfare or well-being, esp. an excessive regard for one's own advantage.
2. conceit; vanity.
3. narcissism (def. 2).

So, essentially, loving yourself (not above all else) is defined by using selfishness, conceit, vanity AND narcissism. Am I the only one who thinks there is something really wrong with all of this?

[badkitty3804]

So, essentially, loving yourself (not above all else) is defined by using selfishness, conceit, vanity AND narcissism. Am I the only one who thinks there is something really wrong with all of this?

No.

I agree whole-heartedly.

I had terribleterribleterrible self-esteem as I was younger and thought I was about as unattractive as it got. It took me quite a few years into adulthood to even start to grasp onto any form or self worth, and it really took hitting the low of the low with letting people treat me in a certain way to make the realization, then an on-going battle to blot out habitual things like comments about 'being too fat' or not speaking my mind about something. Everything that I do for myself (diet, exercise, etc), I can proudly say that I'm doing it for my overall health and keeping my fancy ass on this planet for a bit longer.

I'm not 100% there, but my level of self-worth is getting higher and higher as I go along. I recognize that I'm damn cute, have a fun quirky personality, can hold my head up in an intellectual discussion and have tons other other awesomeness to offer up. For the longest time I was anti-feminist because it just seemed wrong, but in the past couple years, I've taken to a lot of feminist study (mostly 3rd wave), and it's done wonders for all of the jumbled thoughts running amok in my head.

It's not narcissistic. It's recognizing your value for what it's worth and not faltering on that stance and staying humble in the process. If you step beyond and start placing yourself onto a pedestal, you've crossed the line into dangerous territory - and it's all about the middle ground on this one, too little esteem and you'll be trampled on, too much and you're doing the trampling.

[badkitty3804]

And just because someone is going to say it...I <3 self love. :tarvis:

[SiKniSS]

self love = drain babies...

self hate = forcing yourself to watch CMT....

[madeofwires]

i think there is a huge difference in being vain/narcissitic and just being content or confident with who you are/what you look like.

there is more vanity in obsessing over your body image/what you look like than there is in being happy with it imo.

[Hitoi]

Oof. This is a bad time for me to answer this question.

[Shakey]

I used to have horrible self-esteem problems. It was up until extremely recently actually. For example....When I used to take photos at nation, I would have to get completely smashed up before I could approach anyone and ask if I could get a picture. I had horrible self-esteem problems, and terrible social anxiety.

I'm not really sure how I got over it, but I did. Now, I really just don't give a fuck what anyone thinks of me, with one exception. Anyway, self love ftw.

[Killary]

No.

I agree whole-heartedly.

I had terribleterribleterrible self-esteem as I was younger and thought I was about as unattractive as it got. It took me quite a few years into adulthood to even start to grasp onto any form or self worth, and it really took hitting the low of the low with letting people treat me in a certain way to make the realization, then an on-going battle to blot out habitual things like comments about 'being too fat' or not speaking my mind about something. Everything that I do for myself (diet, exercise, etc), I can proudly say that I'm doing it for my overall health and keeping my fancy ass on this planet for a bit longer.

I'm not 100% there, but my level of self-worth is getting higher and higher as I go along. I recognize that I'm damn cute, have a fun quirky personality, can hold my head up in an intellectual discussion and have tons other other awesomeness to offer up. For the longest time I was anti-feminist because it just seemed wrong, but in the past couple years, I've taken to a lot of feminist study (mostly 3rd wave), and it's done wonders for all of the jumbled thoughts running amok in my head.

It's not narcissistic. It's recognizing your value for what it's worth and not faltering on that stance and staying humble in the process. If you step beyond and start placing yourself onto a pedestal, you've crossed the line into dangerous territory - and it's all about the middle ground on this one, too little esteem and you'll be trampled on, too much and you're doing the trampling.

Ohh yes, the younger years were particularly difficult to deal with. It's unfortunate that some (like us) don't get the wake-up call until much much later. And even worse, some don't get that call at all. And, as you mentioned, it has this wonderful tendency to bleed over into other aspects of one's life, causing insult to injury.

I think it's relatively healthy to question your self-esteem as an adult, because realistically nobody can ride at 100% 24/7 without being a little oblivious to themselves. I don't strive for 100%, I like to hang out in the 90's, and occasionally reward myself ("Damn, I'm a hot mama") by peaking at 100%.

I haven't really dabbled in feminism, but for hearing a friend preach to me once in awhile. There was one book, however, that really started to set my hamster spinning in his wheel. It brought out my ability to reflect on the things that happened to me during puberty and adolesence that caused my problems with self-esteem and depression. I recommend it to everyone.


http://www.ucls.uchicago.edu/students/projects/1996-97/Book_Reviews/S96/images/Reviving_Ophelia.gif (http://www.amazon.com/Reviving-Ophelia-Adolescent-Ballantine-Readers/dp/0345392825)
Reviving Ophelia, by Mary M. Pipher

As for self-loving myself... I call that self-service, just so they don't get confused. :tarvis:

[Kill Box]

As a rather nihilistic person about the human race in general, I'd have to say I have self-loathing tendencies at times... but I also feel very optimistic about myself if properly motivated (it usually takes someone else to help me find those feelings, like a woman). It doesn't have to do necessarily with characteristics which are unique to me, but rather traits that are shared pretty widely by humans in general like:

self-indulgence
egocentrism
spite/malice

but for all of these things I can exhibit sometimes, I can also show the opposite. really it just depends what's going on in my life, what my mood is, etc.

[Killary]

i think there is a huge difference in being vain/narcissitic and just being content or confident with who you are/what you look like.

I don't promote vanity or nacissism, I think those are poor values to hold. What I'm saying here is that if you love yourself and have no gripes about your appearance, you are considered shallow and 'full of yourself.'

there is more vanity in obsessing over your body image/what you look like than there is in being happy with it imo.

Being happy with your appearance shouldn't equate to obsession. It also shouldn't denote vanity. I love my body and my personality, and I am not afraid to shout it from mountain tops. But what do people generally hear when these things are said aloud? "She's obsessed with herself"?

The bottom line I'm trying to communicate is: Girls/women shouldn't have to feel like if they love themselves all-around they must keep it a secret for fear of being thought of as vain, conceited narcissists that are obsessed with themselves. Fuck that.

[JuliaP]

I have hated my body all lmy life. but i am not going to go into all that.. Im just mental.

[spiggums]

And just because someone is going to say it...I <3 self love. :tarvis:

on that note: I have finally said to hell with the whole heterosexuality thing...

and, no, that doesn't mean I'm going homosexual....

I've decided that nothing beats being a narcissexual ;P

[badkitty3804]

Ohh yes, the younger years were particularly difficult to deal with. It's unfortunate that some (like us) don't get the wake-up call until much much later. And even worse, some don't get that call at all. And, as you mentioned, it has this wonderful tendency to bleed over into other aspects of one's life, causing insult to injury.

I think it's relatively healthy to question your self-esteem as an adult, because realistically nobody can ride at 100% 24/7 without being a little oblivious to themselves. I don't strive for 100%, I like to hang out in the 90's, and occasionally reward myself ("Damn, I'm a hot mama") by peaking at 100%.

I haven't really dabbled in feminism, but for hearing a friend preach to me once in awhile. There was one book, however, that really started to set my hamster spinning in his wheel. It brought out my ability to reflect on the things that happened to me during puberty and adolesence that caused my problems with self-esteem and depression. I recommend it to everyone.


http://www.ucls.uchicago.edu/students/projects/1996-97/Book_Reviews/S96/images/Reviving_Ophelia.gif (http://www.amazon.com/Reviving-Ophelia-Adolescent-Ballantine-Readers/dp/0345392825)
Reviving Ophelia, by Mary M. Pipher

As for self-loving myself... I call that self-service, just so they don't get confused. :tarvis:

I just finished reading "Jane Sexes It Up (http://www.amazon.com/Jane-Sexes-Up-Confessions-Feminist/dp/1568581807/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-9799997-3219113?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194286339&sr=8-1)"...you should check it out, a really solid read that really pulls out a lot of the similar self-doubts and stresses towards confidence and shows them in a series of essays by every angle - educated feminists, strippers, sex workers, lesbians, etc etc. Gives a nice cross section preview that we all have the same little doubts lingering in our heads, and that it's okay to have some, but you can't let them rule you.

EmmaK recently recommended "The Beauty Myth" to me, and it's what I'm reading after I finish the novel I'm ripping through.

It's kind of sad to look back on my younger years, I was a really happy kid and all, but damn was I WAY too hard on myself in regards to me as a 'full package', and in the process helped load the egos of some people that weren't worth half a breath out of me.

I'm definitely not 100% completely there all of the time with confidence, but striving for it just adds to my artillery.

EDIT: And I don't want to come across as this is only a female problem, it's just how I personally identify since I feel that we get a special flavor of 'programming' from our pre-teen years on about how we should be. PLENTY of guys out there need to start reflecting on their views of self-worth as well.

[badkitty3804]

on that note: I have finally said to hell with the whole heterosexuality thing...

and, no, that doesn't mean I'm going homosexual....

I've decided that nothing beats being a narcissexual ;P

If narcissism needed a posterboi....you'd be it in a heartbeat.

:badkitty:

[Killary]

I have hated my body all lmy life. but i am not going to go into all that.. Im just mental.

Loving your body as much as you love kittens and being satisfied with your body as it is are two different things. You could have a body that other women would kill for, and still have a few complaints. It's perfectly natural to see room for improvement. It's when you take that vision and fuel it with unbridled, ignorant desire and unrealistic expectations that you get disasters, like self-inflicted harm and eating disorders.

My hips are the size of Texas. I really like Pink's hips. I wish I could have them. But for my body type and skeletal structure, it's never going to happen. So I am satisfied with my hips for what they are and I will just drool over Pink's. Make sense?

For reference:
http://www.progressnowaction.org/sync/images/492.jpg

:drool:

[LOGO]

I know this is a chick discussion, but I figured I'd add my $.01.

A lot of people don't know this, but I was a chubby, awkward kid for most of my youth.
I really didn't grow out of it until about 10th grade, but at that point, the psychological damage had been done.
Since then, I have battled fluctuating weight, and I am continuously chasing a fat ghost.
When most people look at me, they see "skinny."
I see it, too, but I still obsess over what I consider to be my "problem areas."

I can get pretty obsessive about working out and trying to eat healthily.
Last year, before I developed a knee injury, I was in the gym for about 2+ hours a day.
I got pretty diesel, but I still obsessed over my problem areas.
I remember one day when I asked one of the personal trainers about a particular lifting exercise to develop the Serratus muscles along the sides of the ribcage, and when she gave me one to do, I said, jokingly "Thanks...I'm gonna be ripped!," to which she replied "What are you talking about? You are ripped."
I thought to myself, "She MUST be crazy."

Funny thing is, I have come to accept this craziness as a part of my life, and outwardly, I come across as super-confident, and to a degree, almost cocky.
But this is just me covering up my insecurities.

[JuliaP]

Loving your body as much as you love kittens and being satisfied with your body as it is are two different things. You could have a body that other women would kill for, and still have a few complaints. It's perfectly natural to see room for improvement. It's when you take that vision and fuel it with unbridled, ignorant desire and unrealistic expectations that you get disasters, like self-inflicted harm and eating disorders.

My hips are the size of Texas. I really like Pink's hips. I wish I could have them. But for my body type and skeletal structure, it's never going to happen. So I am satisfied with my hips for what they are and I will just drool over Pink's. Make sense?

For reference:
http://www.progressnowaction.org/sync/images/492.jpg

Yes I would love to have Pinks's body.. I would love to at least have some of the basic form of most genetic females.. Shit Happens.. I have to cope.. Nothing is gonna change that.

[badkitty3804]

I think that the reasoning behind *why* you want something a certain way is also a pertinent issue.

I want to be 110 lbs and tone because I don't want my boyfriend to think I'm fat = wrong.

I want to be 110 lbs and tone because it's my bodies ideal physical condition and lends itself to a healthy lifestyle = for win

Then again, you hit that strange middle ground of - I want to be 110 lbs and tone because I want to make heads turn - a bit more murky (confidence versus trying to impress the boys)

[Kill Box]

Funny thing is, I have come to accept this craziness as a part of my life, and outwardly, I come across as super-confident, and to a degree, almost cocky.
But this is just me covering up my insecurities.

Most people on this planet do this in certain ways. What you lack for in one area is made up for in another by acting like a cock about it. For example, how many people are total pieces of shit, but snobby because they earn a whole lot of money. How many people are completely arrogant but win people over with their good social skills. etc.etc.etc.

[Killary]

Most people on this planet do this in certain ways. What you lack for in one area is made up for in another by acting like a cock about it. For example, how many people are total pieces of shit, but snobby because they earn a whole lot of money. How many people are completely arrogant but win people over with their good social skills. etc.etc.etc.

..How many guys buy Hummers because they don't enough to pitch a lean-to, let alone a tent.

*grumble*

[JuliaP]

Ok I got to share a funny thing. SOme wont find it amusing but i know some have a reasonable mind and can see the humor in it.. I know I do..

It's kinda of a downer for a guy, when the girl he is dating was bigger than he was.. It has happened LOL

Ok Flame Away...

[spiggums]

Ok I got to share a funny thing. SOme wont find it amusing but i know some have a reasonable mind and can see the humor in it.. I know I do..

It's kinda of a downer for a guy, when the girl he is dating was bigger than he was.. It has happened LOL

Ok Flame Away...
hahahahaha...

I can see a variety of different ways that conversation could go... and all of them make me laugh!

[JuliaP]

hahahahaha...

I have a variety of different ways that conversation could go... and all of them make me laugh!

Thank goodness, they each did end in laughter. those were interesting days.. lol

[GiveMeFunkyBeats]

My hips are the size of Texas. I really like Pink's hips. I wish I could have them. But for my body type and skeletal structure, it's never going to happen. So I am satisfied with my hips for what they are and I will just drool over Pink's. Make sense?

For reference:
http://www.progressnowaction.org/sync/images/492.jpg

:drool:


i think pink has the body of a man :elad: and her hips are not very womanly/attractive in any way

[JuliaP]

i think pink has the body of a man :elad: and her hips are not very womanly/attractive in any way


Look at the waist line. No man has a waist line that low.. thats a HUGE difference...

[spiggums]

Jesus christ... between the comments on Pink and "self-love" in the title...

now I've got "U + Ur Hand" stuck in my head!

[JuliaP]

Jesus christ... between the comments on Pink and "self-love" in the title...

now I've got "U + Ur Hand" stuck in my head!


LOL

[Killary]

i think pink has the body of a man :elad: and her hips are not very womanly/attractive in any way

I'm half lesbian, and lesbians go crazy for Pink's hips. Oh, the things I would do to those hips..

..no! NO! Not at work! Aaagggh!

/female boner

[LilLemur416]

What I find interesting is that so much selfworth (and discussions of) revolve around the physical image of ones self. I've never really thought of myself as all that beautiful or pretty, I have moments/days where I feel extremely beautiful or pretty, and in general, I don't think I'm *bad* looking - I just don't think I'm that amazing - but growing up, it never really got to me that much because I was always really happy about everything else in my life. I knew I was smart & funny & had so many other good qualities that my looks didn't really matter to me (ie, I didn't care if I wasn't the prettiest girl around).

I was never able to stand the girls with the "DCS" you're talking about - I'm not going to deny myself something because I'm worried about gaining weight. I might just be really lucky in that I've always been thin & have never really had to worry about what I've eaten - but the girls I went to middle school & high school with that were constantly worried about how much they weighed or what they looked like drove me up the wall.

I think there definately does need to be a term for people who are confident in themselves (not overly so), and it does suck that "self-love" is defined using those terms.

[GiveMeFunkyBeats]

http://www.screenhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/jessicabielgqcovr.jpg


v.


http://walktaken.com/wp-content/uploads/Tee2/Pink_at_beach_1.jpg

pink has the body of a man


jessica biel looks like a woman :wink:... jessica biel wins

[JuliaP]

Just had to through in this image..
http://reiko81ita.altervista.org/_altervista_ht/shane.jpg

[OhNoesIt'sJohn]

I know this is a chick discussion, but I figured I'd add my $.01.

A lot of people don't know this, but I was a chubby, awkward kid for most of my youth.
I really didn't grow out of it until about 10th grade, but at that point, the psychological damage had been done.
Since then, I have battled fluctuating weight, and I am continuously chasing a fat ghost.
When most people look at me, they see "skinny."
I see it, too, but I still obsess over what I consider to be my "problem areas."

I can get pretty obsessive about working out and trying to eat healthily.
Last year, before I developed a knee injury, I was in the gym for about 2+ hours a day.
I got pretty diesel, but I still obsessed over my problem areas.
I remember one day when I asked one of the personal trainers about a particular lifting exercise to develop the Serratus muscles along the sides of the ribcage, and when she gave me one to do, I said, jokingly "Thanks...I'm gonna be ripped!," to which she replied "What are you talking about? You are ripped."
I thought to myself, "She MUST be crazy."

Funny thing is, I have come to accept this craziness as a part of my life, and outwardly, I come across as super-confident, and to a degree, almost cocky.
But this is just me covering up my insecurities.

odd, i had the same shit growing up, but lately i've attributed it to shithead friends and family and less on how i look. plus i was born with a rather odd genetic condition which i won't go in to here, but shit tore apart my self esteem, and still does at times.

i'm def. more at peace with how i look and the only reason I still work out is for personal goals/energy/relief of depression/watching the lovely women in group exercise classes.

[Killary]

http://www.screenhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/jessicabielgqcovr.jpg


v.


http://walktaken.com/wp-content/uploads/Tee2/Pink_at_beach_1.jpg

pink has the body of a man


jessica biel looks like a woman :wink:... jessica biel wins

You're not making it any easier for me to get my work done, here.

I don't think a woman has to be feminine to be attractive. It's a matter of preference. Jessica may win it for you, but my taste in women runs toward the masculine side. I'm feminine and girly, so I like my wimmins to have bulkier/sharper frames and carved muscles and broad shoulders and narrow hips and.. and..

:yummy:

..uh, it's a matter of preference.

[OhNoesIt'sJohn]

Loving your body as much as you love kittens and being satisfied with your body as it is are two different things. You could have a body that other women would kill for, and still have a few complaints. It's perfectly natural to see room for improvement. It's when you take that vision and fuel it with unbridled, ignorant desire and unrealistic expectations that you get disasters, like self-inflicted harm and eating disorders.

My hips are the size of Texas. I really like Pink's hips. I wish I could have them. But for my body type and skeletal structure, it's never going to happen. So I am satisfied with my hips for what they are and I will just drool over Pink's. Make sense?

For reference:
http://www.progressnowaction.org/sync/images/492.jpg

:drool:

but see, to some men, large hips are a HUGE turn on.

i mean i've been known to chase women around based on their hips and little else.

[spiggums]

pink has the body of a man


jessica biel looks like a woman :wink:... jessica biel wins

I mean... if Pink and Jessica Biel were standing in front of me, each asking me to sleep with them...

it wouldn't even be a question of whom to choose... Biel in a heartbeat...

[Killary]

Just had to through in this image..

Katherine Moening needs to eat a sammich. There I said it.

[JuliaP]

Katherine Moening needs to eat a sammich. There I said it.


hmmm.. I will choose to disagree.. well ok maybe one sammich..

[Killary]

but see, to some men, large hips are a HUGE turn on.

i mean i've been known to chase women around based on their hips and little else.

Whoa, killer! :whip:

Nah, I don't get down on my big hips, they are beautiful in their own right. I just like Pink's a smidge more than my own.

And, supposedly, men will chase heavier-gaited women with rounder hips because they are made for child-bearing. The urge to merge, you know.

You want little Johns, don't you? :traviswork:

[OhNoesIt'sJohn]

Katherine Moening needs to eat a sammich. There I said it.

and not look like a man.

i swear some women need to eat more.

not get fat eat, but working out + eating RIGHT = hotness like jessica biel.

that woman has guns the likes of which many of you should have...

and that ass? about 50% of it is natural, the rest is built by her via squats/etc.

[Muramasa]

I mean... if Pink and Jessica Biel were standing in front of me, each asking me to sleep with them...

it wouldn't even be a question of whom to choose... Biel in a heartbeat...

"Ladies, please! There's enough of me to go around."

[OhNoesIt'sJohn]

Whoa, killer! :whip:

Nah, I don't get down on my big hips, they are beautiful in their own right. I just like Pink's a smidge more than my own.

And, supposedly, men will chase heavier-gaited women with rounder hips because they are made for child-bearing. The urge to merge, you know.

NO BABIES FOR ME!

ha, no babies here either, i just like something to wrap my arms around...and not fear i'll squish it.

[EmmaK]

i think pink has the body of a man :elad: and her hips are not very womanly/attractive in any way
While I know what you mean about her body shape, I do think a major contributing factor to the overall phenomenon of women picking on themselves is the collective habit of women picking on each other.

True--her body isn't the 'classic' or super 'feminine' body shape that's idealized, expected, and sometimes even demanded of women (and now girls) in this culture. However, she has a strong body, and she is confident about using it and showing it as she pleases. So while *I* would not want to be shaped like her, she possesses a certain kind of attractiveness that stems from being a strong woman.


(And Doh, I'm not trying to single out your comment, I'm just using it as a jumping-off point.)

http://www.screenhead.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/jessicabielgqcovr.jpg

jessica biel looks like a woman :wink:... jessica biel wins
I have the hugest girly-crush on Jessica Biel. She is fierce, and ridiculously beautiful.

[JuliaP]

While I know what you mean about her body shape, I do think a major contributing factor to the overall phenomenon of women picking on themselves is the collective habit of women picking on each other.

True--her body isn't the 'classic' or super 'feminine' body shape that's idealized, expected, and sometimes even demanded of women (and now girls) in this culture. However, she has a strong body, and she is confident about using it and showing it as she pleases. So while *I* would not want to be shaped like her, she possesses a certain kind of attractiveness that stems from being a strong woman.


(And Doh, I'm not trying to single out your comment, I'm just using it as a jumping-off point.)


-->>> And getting the discussion back on track... ;-)

[madeofwires]

Being happy with your appearance shouldn't equate to obsession.



.

I had not meant for it to, what i mean is people who are UNhappy with their appearacne generally obssess over it....

[badkitty3804]

True--her body isn't the 'classic' or super 'feminine' body shape that's idealized, expected, and sometimes even demanded of women (and now girls) in this culture. However, she has a strong body, and she is confident about using it and showing it as she pleases. So while *I* would not want to be shaped like her, she possesses a certain kind of attractiveness that stems from being a strong woman.

:star:

Following typical ideas of femininity does not dictate the level of attractiveness. There have been plenty of women and men that I've come across that I found to be utterly attractive and kind of hover on the feminine-male/masculine-female borders...and sometimes it's that unique flare that makes them that much more attractive through some form of sexual ambiguity.

And I personally think she (Pink) has a very sexy figure and face. It's just a different kind of sexy than someone like Jessica Biel that has more of a curve based figure. Both women carry and air of confidence and intelligence, which just builds on their physical beauty.

[GiveMeFunkyBeats]

i was just commenting on the attractiveness of her figure...i said nothing about her intelligence/attitude or whatever else


she looks like a man

[badkitty3804]

That's not what I was saying with my post, that was just me stating what I personally see.

As far as looking like a man, I just don't see it. She looks like someone that doesn't carry the conventional curvy feminine figure.

[Kitty Kat]

self love = drain babies...

self hate = forcing yourself to watch CMT....

ha ha ha ha! :hilarious:

[Miss.Soul]

I think a lot of girls go through unnecessary self loathing because of what the ideal of beauty is right now, but I also think that ideal is slowly changing. What society deems beautiful ebbs and flows, Marilyn Monroe was a size 16, and I think a lot of women around that time were that size.

I also think a lot of girls put more emhasis on themselves and others to be a certain size which isn't even a size guys like. Most guys I know don't want some bony skinny chick and they never have.

[bscarry]

Sweet thread!! :thumbsup:

Yeah I never much thought about this but having a little girl that's only 4 years old and having to witness all the tools tell here "aww you're so cute" 24/7 instead of you're funny, smart, etc is annoying. I don't agree with how kids are socialized and it promotes the crap for which people are picked on in schools.

on a related but somewhat tangent. Jon and John...i've seen pics of you both and my 2 cents is you both look fine. Just tossing in my feedback to suppport ya efforts to keep shit real and acknowledge your hard work at the gym. John...appreciated your gym links and info. Jon...you name is spelled like the toilet but you got a charm all of your own and though you almost as FOSSIL old as me...you do fine inside and out. Keep it real brudda.

K back onto my original sharing. I think it's great to hear and know more woment getting away from caddy pickn on what other women wear or look like. I know it's easier said than done but I can speak for myself on the point. Damn the man when it comes to people doggin on what other people look like simply to make themselves feel betta.

Keep in mind if you look like Chunk from Goonies...yeah i'm still gonna make fun of a brotha but hey that bitch can probably pick me up and eat me so I'm pretty sure there's still balance in the universe. Humor is one thing...cruelty is another.

Self cruelty is the harshest of the harsh. We all got a lil of that captain in us at times be it how we look or how we think. It's all about climbing the mountain of self acknowledgement and lovn of one self in the end.

Alas I'll now STFU and go
*poof*

[Alexis]

I have always had problems with my height/weight that were the opposite of most womens insecurities. It was always "If I could be 5 inches shorter and 20lbs heavier I would be beautiful". It was not until I was older that I finally figured out that my height was not ever going to change and that it was something I could either hate forever or learn to love. There are still days where I wish I could be "average", but for the most part I can claim "self love". I have conquered most of my body issues as an adult.

[EmmaK]

I think a lot of girls go through unnecessary self loathing because of what the ideal of beauty is right now, but I also think that ideal is slowly changing. What society deems beautiful ebbs and flows, Marilyn Monroe was a size 16, and I think a lot of women around that time were that size.

I also think a lot of girls put more emhasis on themselves and others to be a certain size which isn't even a size guys like. Most guys I know don't want some bony skinny chick and they never have.
Just to clarify something...She ranged from a size 10 to a size 14. In 1950s sizes--not today's versions of those sizes.

[Muramasa]

i was just commenting on the attractiveness of her figure...i said nothing about her intelligence/attitude or whatever else


she looka like a man

http://www.npr.org/programs/theride/aborstein/swan.jpg

[sassypance]

I'm definitely not at my skinniest at the moment but I attribute that to not being a party girl anymore. I've also realized that in order for me to look as I once did I really need to start strength training again so the bench is coming back out and I'm taking Individual Strength Training at school in the spring just for myself. I can say that when I've lifted that has been the best I've ever looked and I get a lot of gratification out of it so I'm going to start up again.

I feel vastly different from most girls my age as I've never had an eating disorder or dysmorphia of any sort and I've been comfortable with my body image for as long as I've known. Yes I've picked out my problem areas, but I don't obsess. My weight has always fluctuated a good ten pounds or so and really there's nothing I can do to control that, so I don't try. I just continue eating foods I know are healthy and foods that will help to give me energy to get through my day since that's a constant struggle. The B12 injections have finally started helping which I'm utterly grateful for but they would do nothing for me if I didn't do cardio and maintain a pretty healthy diet.

As for the celeb bodies posted... give me a break. They are paid to not eat and have the time to be in the gym 24/7 if they please. *ACTUAL* people aren't so lucky. If you have a few extra pounds on you, you're not tipping the BMI scale so chill.

[Chrississippi]

So, essentially, loving yourself (not above all else) is defined by using selfishness, conceit, vanity AND narcissism. Am I the only one who thinks there is something really wrong with all of this?

You're confusing self-love with self-esteem. Being vain and being honest with yourself about your strengths and weaknesses are two separate things. Vanity/narcissim/ego is when you deny your faults and expect only perfection from yourself, having healthy self-esteem is when you can honestly assess both the good and the bad but love yourself anyway. Yes, vanity is bad because it makes you have unrealistic expectations by setting your goals so high that you can never reach them. Being emotionally healthy is where you can say, "yes, I need to change x, y, and z, here's how I'm going to go about changing them, if I fuck up now and again it's ok because overall I'm still awesome."

[Killary]

You're confusing self-love with self-esteem. Being vain and being honest with yourself about your strengths and weaknesses are two separate things. Vanity/narcissim/ego is when you deny your faults and expect only perfection from yourself, having healthy self-esteem is when you can honestly assess both the good and the bad but love yourself anyway. Yes, vanity is bad because it makes you have unrealistic expectations by setting your goals so high that you can never reach them. Being emotionally healthy is where you can say, "yes, I need to change x, y, and z, here's how I'm going to go about changing them, if I fuck up now and again it's ok because overall I'm still awesome."

I don't disagree with any part of what you're saying. I think my words are coming across differently than the point I'm trying to express. If you asked the general public how they defined their attitude towards themselves in terms of self-esteem and confidence and etc, I feel that they would choose the term 'self-love' to convey that they are happy with themselves in general. The dumb thing about that is, 'self-love' is defined negatively in the dictionary.

As I stated in a response to another comment, I don't think vanity and/or narcissism are good, healthy values. I just think it's amusing that in this day and age, when poor self-esteem runs rampant in youth, a term that *I* feel should denote positivity is, in reality, not a term of endearment.

[madeofwires]

who uses the term "Self-love" though to describe that feeling?

why not ask them how they feel using different terms?

[Killary]

who uses the term "Self-love" though to describe that feeling?

why not ask them how they feel using different terms?

That is what the poll is meant to illustrate. I ask at the beginning of my post for people to select a poll answer before reading the definition below. The amount of people choosing 'self-love' is more than double that of 'self-hate'. Basically, if you're prompted to select one or the other, you generally wouldn't think to say, "they're both negative terms." If you love yourself as a person, you would initially select 'self-love', but you would be expressing that you do not hold positive, healthy views on yourself. I think there's something wrong with that. If you don't, then we are just going to disagree on this one.

Edit: By the way, what word or term would you use in place of self-love?

[badkitty3804]

You also should look at how fast someone will label another as being cocky or narcissistic for recognizing the fact that they're quality (attractive, intelligent, etc.).

For the longest time, I wouldn't even utter that I was pretty because the moment that the words started to come out of my mouth I felt as though I stepping beyond some imaginary boundary. But in the end, I was just reacting to how I thought I was supposed to behave. Now? Fuck that. I'm damn cute and I know it. Do I think that I'm superior to anyone? No. That's the difference between self-love and narcissism, and it shouldn't be so fuzzy in the definition between the two.

[Killary]

You also should look at how fast someone will label another as being cocky or narcissistic for recognizing the fact that they're quality (attractive, intelligent, etc.).

For the longest time, I wouldn't even utter that I was pretty because the moment that the words started to come out of my mouth I felt as though I stepping beyond some imaginary boundary. But in the end, I was just reacting to how I thought I was supposed to behave. Now? Fuck that. I'm damn cute and I know it. Do I think that I'm superior to anyone? No. That's the difference between self-love and narcissism, and it shouldn't be so fuzzy in the definition between the two.

That is one of the more fascinating things about DCS to me. It's as if once girls reach a certain age, they must choose between (1) loving themselves unconditionally and being labeled as a conceited bitch, or (2) hating themselves unreasonably so as not to upset the herd. Then there is always the third option, which is to love yourself falsely in the eyes of others so that you appear to be untouchable. It's a horrid triangle, whose corners feed each other like a vicious cycle. The self-haters single out the self-lovers as full of themselves, while the false self-lovers feed off of the insecurities and weakness of the self-haters and etc.

My experience as a pre-teen was a little different from yours. I wasn't a very pretty girl through elementary or middle school. In fact, I had a bout of ugly duckling time in high school, too. But even for not being the most attractive girl in school, I was still smart as hell and witty and thought of as funny amongst my friends. But I couldn't chalk those things up to being a good person with self-esteem, because I had been under the impression that my appearence determined my worth as a person.

So, in a way, I know where you're coming from. And you are damn cute, and I'm glad you know it and can say it.

[EmmaK]

As for the celeb bodies posted... give me a break. They are paid to not eat and have the time to be in the gym 24/7 if they please. *ACTUAL* people aren't so lucky. If you have a few extra pounds on you, you're not tipping the BMI scale so chill.
EXACTLY. I try to emphasize that over and over to people (including myself)--celebrities, actors, models, entertainers, etc. have a job description that involves keeping their body looking a certain way. They are paid to look amazing, whatever their version of amazing happens to be. The fastest way to make yourself feel like shit is to compare YOUR OWN body against someone else's body, whether a friend, colleague, or even a celebrity. Hey, guess what--everyone has different metabolisms, natural body shapes, inclinations toward a set point, musculature, and perhaps on some levels, most important--different LIFESTYLES. If you are working a full day in an office, maintaining a home, have hobbies or maybe even a second career (or school, etc.), and actually spend time with a partner or other friends/loved ones, then you are not going to have the same exact damn body as an actress who spends 2-3 hours in the gym, has a nutritionist or chef, and drops a huge chunk of change on spa treatments, cosmetic treatments, trainers, stylists, and hair and makeup artists. And trust and believe that most of the photos you see retouched in some way.

[GiveMeFunkyBeats]

http://anonymous1234.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/sisters2with-kitty-cat.jpg





*disclaimer: i do not believe in the message this cat is stating...i just stumbled on this in search for my "in communist korea cat eat you" picture and thought it was semi-relevant to this thread and FUNNY

[Don Miguel Lush]

i just stumbled on this in search for my "in communist korea cat eat you" picture
ok, you win

[madeofwires]

i think self hate is a pretty strong term too... like i may be insecure about myself, or obsess over the way i look because i'm unahppy with my apperance but i don't HATE myself.

maybe that's why people would choose the term self-love over self-hate....

i think self confidence is a better term or insecure maybe?
the only reason i said that, was because i don't hear the terms self-love, and self-hate being used very often.... :shrug:

also, i definately agree with there being something wrong with people not being allowed to be happy or confident with themselves without being perceived as vain or conceited...

you may see it younger people, but i think as people grow older, they don't look at it like that anymore...

[Killary]

http://anonymous1234.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/sisters2with-kitty-cat.jpg





*disclaimer: i do not believe in the message this cat is stating...i just stumbled on this in search for my "in communist korea cat eat you" picture and thought it was semi-relevant to this thread and FUNNY

Aw, Doh!

:whack:

http://venomradio.no-ip.biz/cast/thumbnails/soviet_korea.jpg

[GiveMeFunkyBeats]

Aw, Doh!

:whack:

http://venomradio.no-ip.biz/cast/thumbnails/soviet_korea.jpg


OMG YES YOU FOUND IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lupitanahsee]

Just to clarify something...She ranged from a size 10 to a size 14. In 1950s sizes--not today's versions of those sizes.
yeah i was gonna post that. she equates to about a size 6 in todays size charts.

[jbee]

where the hell has killary been?

[EmmaK]

yeah i was gonna post that. she equates to about a size 6 in todays size charts.
What's funny is how obvious that should be to any female who looks at her photos realistically.
And yeah she'd have been a 6 in her thin times and a healthy 10 in her curvier years. Alas, wasted logic.