DJ's, What do YOU consider to be fair compensation for your booking?

[| Bass Drop |]

Another 50+ page thread i'm sure....

When you are requested to play "Club ABC" by Promoter "1-2-3". What do you consider to be fair compensation for your time performing/traveling?

Multiple choice!

/curous

[Matt Sanborn]

depends....some clubs Ken and I play for drinks (especially during the week)

but on weekends if its a place like say FIVE or another big event we get paid well

[Rican]

Depends on the situation I guess each DJ is on their own level and can make demands based on where they are at... also depends on how big a draw the person is and how far they have to travel to get there... some DJs are just looking to get their name out there and will do it for free for the exposure while others have an established following and can demand a price. Although, I would say if you have to travel and the night isn't free you should get gas money at the very least no matter what your stature.

[| Bass Drop |]

Another question for discussion that I didnt list in the poll.

What do you do when Promoter ABC offers you a booking but cannot compensate in $$$, only comp's and drink tickets/open, semi-open bar. But when your bottle runs dry, getting a drink from them is like pulling teeth.

[The Logic Theorist]

Like Sanborn said, it's really pretty variable. Some parties, like Buzz, have a set dollar amount they pay locals. Most club residencies have compensation in mind when they hire you, but I have negotiated up when I'd played a few weeks and was obviously right for the club (packing the dancefloor, etc).

If it's a one off with no set compensation in mind, I usually try to base it off the door charge. If I have to bring out my own gear (mobile DJ type gig, which I do a few of a year) or travel then that factors into what I ask for.

Sidenote: I've dealt with all sorts of shady promoters, so if I have to go anywhere further than the metro I get everything in writing.

[LOGO]

A lot depends on one's DJ status.
Most local jocks end up playing local DJ events at smaller venues with no headliners, so pay, if anything, is going to be minimal.

When opening for headliners at bigger venues, there is typically monetary compensation, but it varies from club to club.

Since I'm nobody special, when a local promoter asks me to play an event, I feel that I don't have the right to demand a certain amount of pay, or for that matter, to even ask what the compensation will be.
Sometimes it's nothing more than some type of bar comp, other times it's between $20–100.

Now, if I were asked to travel to somewhere outside of the Bmore/DC/VA area, I would definitely want to discuss some form of payment upfront.

[djgrun]

I've played lots of paying gigs but have never asked for compensation other than comps. Out of state I think it's a nice gesture to get cash to compensate the very expensive cost of gas (and hotel), but if it's a party you'd probably be going to anyway then I don't think it's necessary

The REAL compensation is getting to play out to a good crowd!

[LOGO]

What do you do when Promoter ABC offers you a booking but cannot compensate in $$$, only comp's and drink tickets/open, semi-open bar. But when your bottle runs dry, getting a drink from them is like pulling teeth.
I haven't run into this problem.
Usually, in these types of situations, the promoter and I have discussed what the extent of the bar comp will be, so I know that going into it.
If I'm told I get a $35 bar tab and I go over $35, it's my fault.

Basically, if there are any terms of compensation that are discussed before the gig, it's the DJ's responsibility to make sure that he/she is clear about them.

If a promoter says something like, "We can't pay you, but we'll take care of you on drinks," the DJ should ask the promoter what exactly "being taken care of" means.
Ask for a dollar amount.

[The Logic Theorist]

The REAL compensation is getting to play out to a good crowd!

Some of us have played out to fantastic crowds many, many, many times. And while it's nice, you need to keep in mind that promoters/bar owners are making money off of your time, talent, effort, and ultimately records (cds, mp3s) and you deserve a cut of that money proportional to what the promoter/owner made.

[Matt Sanborn]

We get the most money from opening on a Fri or Sat for a big headliner.

like this past weekend we opened for Farina, we promoted it well, beat up the dancefloor crzy like, and got paid appropriately.

its not professional to go into exact numbers- but those types of gigs by far, pay exponentially better than any other local bookings....trust me, I have played them all.

[Maboroshi]

Ive been all over the place with this one. I've been paid, haven't been paid, I have paid (when i say this ive been on both sides of the tracks. playing at parties and throwing parties), I haven't paid, I've been given comps/drink tickets/and or a certain amount of free drinks. Now out of state i would say some cash for gas would be nice. Im not a big time dj and i do not require a contract so it doesn't really matter. Playing for a crowd was payment enough for me (and a couple shots of jager).

[nsI]

i have been paid allot more playing hip-hop gigs then edm parties.

/my2cents

[Quannum Logic]

It really depends....I like getting paid, but I also like playing.

[djgrun]

Some of us have played out to fantastic crowds many, many, many times. And while it's nice, you need to keep in mind that promoters/bar owners are making money off of your time, talent, effort, and ultimately records (cds, mp3s) and you deserve a cut of that money proportional to what the promoter/owner made.

Well, noone wants to be taken advantage of! I understand your position. If the promoter is clearly profiting heavily then you do deserve cash. But right now a majority of events in DC are small and don't seem terribly profitable in my opinion, five ibiza and buzz excluded (which you would obviously be paid for)


All this does depend on your attitude towards DJ'ing. Some people expect to break even for all their time and records, some want to profit, others expect to lose money. I DJ and also do live PA and it would be impossible for me to ever break even, so fair compensation in my eyes would be getting to party for free, maybe free food/drinks, and to perform at a good party. I have a day job and whether or not I get paid $50 for playing out is frankly a minor detail, I'm in it for the fun and the memories!

[MURAMASA]

Depends entirely on the situation, but I usually ask for what's fair. Usually the only free gigs I'll play are the ones where I know the promoter and I know they're not making much/any money from my performance; house parties, intimate events, etc... special events like birthdays and such, too. Gigs in DC I tend to be lax about because this is the area I'm from, and I really want area promoters to do well and help the area thrive.

Part of working it out fairly is looking at the whole formula -- how much are you spending to get there and perform? How much money are they potentially going to make from booking you? Is it a holiday event (more likely to do well)? Do you have any other paying offers for that date, or gigs you'll have to pass on due to lots of traveling? How did your last performance with this promoter go, and how was the feedback? What timeslot will you be playing? And so on, and so on.

When you're working as a local, you really have to keep in mind that it's completely unfair for a promoter to expect you to spend money on new music and spend money on gas without offering compensation for it. Comps and free drinks are usually fine as most of us drink quite a bit so it's essentially still a form of pay, but a big bar tab is useless if you have work early the next morning.

[elad]

$3.50

[LOGO]

That's fucking outrageous.
Good luck getting booked with those rates.

[spiggums]

Most people have hit this one pretty squarely on the head...

which is to say that there are far too many factors that get involved to say generally what's right. It really needs to be taken on a case by case basis...

[The Logic Theorist]

Well, noone wants to be taken advantage of! I understand your position. If the promoter is clearly profiting heavily then you do deserve cash. But right now a majority of events in DC are small and don't seem terribly profitable in my opinion, five ibiza and buzz excluded (which you would obviously be paid for)

There are literally hundreds of nightclubs/bars in the District of Columbia alone, not even talking about the DC metro area. SOMEONE is making money on them or they wouldn't stay open, period. You're thinking in a very, very limited sense what it means to DJ, and where it's possible to DJ.

If you look at the list of events in the UnBuzz promotion forum, you're right. Most of them are very small weekday parties that are not bringing in a lot of people and probably not even getting paid for the promotion they bring to the bar (which is another thread entirely) and you really can't expect them to give you a lot of money. But that doesn't even come close to what goes on in this city on any given day.


All this does depend on your attitude towards DJ'ing. Some people expect to break even for all their time and records, some want to profit, others expect to lose money. I DJ and also do live PA and it would be impossible for me to ever break even, so fair compensation in my eyes would be getting to party for free, maybe free food/drinks, and to perform at a good party. I have a day job and whether or not I get paid $50 for playing out is frankly a minor detail, I'm in it for the fun and the memories!

Sure, $50 is a minor detail. That's not the kind of cheddar I'm talking about. I play because I like it, but I also play outside the scene because the money is generally better, the crowds are generally better, and you generally get booked directly by the club without having to go through a promoter middle man. And yes, I have a day job too, although I could actually DJ for a living and I know people that do.

Ask yourself this though, if the party is that great and the crowd is that great, how is it really possible that someone isn't making money at the end of the night?

I'd say it's more likely one or the other. Either someone is walking out with cash, in which case you deserve some of it, or the club was largely empty.

You do actually have the potential to break even or even make money playing records if that's what you really want to do. It -is- possible, don't sell yourself short.

[Matt Sanborn]

I have dj'd as a job before, and if I wanted to- I could now.

but yeah- then djing gets to be a job- and for the most part, stops being fun. When I started not looking forward to gigs...I started being a lot more selective with where I played. (Five, Buzz, Sonar, etc)

I have a residency at FIVE, and play there frequently....and that satisfies my local dj itch for the most part. I would rather stay home then go play for a couple hundred bucks at a party Im not into.

[| Bass Drop |]

Question:

Do you think clubs/promoters take advantage of the fact that many dj's will play for next to nothing. Thus lowering the overall value of the local DJ on a regional scale?

[Rican]

Question:

Do you think clubs/promoters take advantage of the fact that many dj's will play for next to nothing. Thus lowering the overall value of the local DJ on a regional scale?

you make a good point, because why would a promoter pay X local DJ from another area to travel down to their event when they can get Y local DJ from their own area to play for free. One reason, why unless you know someone, it can be very hard to break into another scene that you're not from as just a "local DJ"... I don't know if its taking advantage as much as a sensical business move...

[djgrun]

There are literally hundreds of nightclubs/bars in the District of Columbia alone, not even talking about the DC metro area. SOMEONE is making money on them or they wouldn't stay open, period. You're thinking in a very, very limited sense what it means to DJ, and where it's possible to DJ.

If you look at the list of events in the UnBuzz promotion forum, you're right. Most of them are very small weekday parties that are not bringing in a lot of people and probably not even getting paid for the promotion they bring to the bar (which is another thread entirely) and you really can't expect them to give you a lot of money. But that doesn't even come close to what goes on in this city on any given day.

Yeah, I was speaking more to the latter half of this. There are plenty of nightclubs and bars but most of them are cheese-fests that stay open by playing terrible music and selling lots of drinks doing so. We're probably disagreeing because we're talking about 2 different worlds, and if you're talking about those kinds of places then I would 100% want paid. Those events are completely profit-driven.

I think in a very very limited sense of what it means to be a DJ/performer because whenever I think about it, I think about performing at actual raves, warehouses, fields, etc. Unfortunately that's not the reality nor interest of 99% of the other performers on the buzzboards, so my comments really don't apply




Ask yourself this though, if the party is that great and the crowd is that great, how is it really possible that someone isn't making money at the end of the night?

I'd say it's more likely one or the other. Either someone is walking out with cash, in which case you deserve some of it, or the club was largely empty.

I can't argue with you there. I guess that's why you are called the logic theorist! If a party was THAT packed and I didn't get anything though, I'm sure I would be miffed. I guess I'm in favor of being paid if it happens, but not requiring money up front if it's not going to happen. Sadly, I understand shady promoters as much as the next guy does..




You do actually have the potential to break even or even make money playing records if that's what you really want to do. It -is- possible, don't sell yourself short.

The many styles of music I spin and make are invariably niche music that 95% of clubs want absolutely nothing to do with because it won't run bar sales through the roof or whatever, so for me the prospect of breaking even is truely remote! (although I am quite passionate about this music)

For other people I am sure it's possible, although I still can't believe anyone could pay a DC-metro mortgage of any size on DJ earnings alone (what I'd consider making a living, but that's another thread too right?)



I do appreciate your thoughts, as I'm quite ignorant of the typical club business (although happily so)


Robert

[DJ HEADBANGER]

$3.50
you mean, tree fiddy

[spiggums]

For other people I am sure it's possible, although I still can't believe anyone could pay a DC-metro mortgage of any size on DJ earnings alone (what I'd consider making a living, but that's another thread too right?)

You'd be surprised what some of the DJs at those "cheese fest" clubs you mention make...

[djgrun]

You'd be surprised what some of the DJs at those "cheese fest" clubs you mention make...

I really can't be surprised one way or another until I hear more than vague references about it (like this one), but I can make inference

But if they are, then good for them! If a wedding DJ deserves to make money then certainly so does someone doing a similar role at a cheesey club in the interest of money. They're probably working harder anyhow

My thoughts on DJ'ing background music at a "cheese fest" club go way beyond the scope of this thread, it's just not my scene. Noone hates on what I do though and I intend to return that respect


Robert

[empath]

I only play for sex.

[The Logic Theorist]

I really can't be surprised one way or another until I hear more than vague references about it (like this one), but I can make inference

But if they are, then good for them! If a wedding DJ deserves to make money then certainly so does someone doing a similar role at a cheesey club in the interest of money. They're probably working harder anyhow

My thoughts on DJ'ing background music at a "cheese fest" club go way beyond the scope of this thread, it's just not my scene. Noone hates on what I do though and I intend to return that respect


Robert

If you're talking about top40 clubs as "cheese fest" then I can assure you there's a whole lot more than that up for grabs out there. I've played at (and been paid well at) plenty of clubs that specifically want more ecclectic music. In fact, I parted ways with Bourbon because the music I was playing was too mainstream for them. That place gave me a free dinner every night I played, unlimited bar tab, and a hefty amount of cash at the end of the night, and believe me when I say they were (and still are) packed to the rafters every single Friday and Saturday.

There's a whole scene of house and progressive house nightclubs and DJs that never get posted on the buzzboard.

The only two choices are not top40 pure cheese and underground where no one gets paid. There's a ton of in between.

The residency I have right now pretty much lets me play whatever I want, and I'll do everything from brand new top40 hip hop to UK Garage to downtempo to House and all sorts of things in between. Another guy that I play with on the regular (Joey Muniz) doesn't play any cheese (he gets mad at me when we play together for putting on mainstream) and he plays so much he has to hand me gigs because he doesn't have time.

It's all in what you find and make it. :shrug:

[Matt Sanborn]

Ive done those types of weekly gigs- Blueroom, Gazuza, etc. And I have thrown parties with Muniz doing the same type of thing.

not my thing anymore.

I would rather play once a month at FIVE on a Fri or Sat where it is crazy packed- than play to a small club in Adams Morgan 4 times a month (even if it is also packed).

and the money works out about the same.

[The Logic Theorist]

Yeah Matt, I feel you, but for me I pretty much don't touch my decks unless I'm at a gig now. So, if I only play once a month I start to get pretty rusty.

[Matt Sanborn]

Yeah Matt, I feel you, but for me I pretty much don't touch my decks unless I'm at a gig now. So, if I only play once a month I start to get pretty rusty.


yeah...but you are definately right. As far as stuff we would play those type of places are some of the spots you could pay the bills playing at reguarly.

[nsI]

Yeah Matt, I feel you, but for me I pretty much don't touch my decks unless I'm at a gig now. So, if I only play once a month I start to get pretty rusty.

i actually am the same way even though there are people constantly playing records in my house.

[Maboroshi]

i actually am the same way even though there are people constantly playing records in my house.
including you? :wall:

[nsI]

including you? :wall:

if you notice most the times i play records thats all i am doing. picking up a record to listen to while hanging out. that doesnt require mixing :booty:

[The Logic Theorist]

I think the real key thing is this:

The whole concept of a promotion/production company came about because parties were being thrown in non traditional venues (ie not a nightclub or bar). But now, unless you can bring something special to the table like a brand name (Buzz, and all that Buzz has built over time), or a significant word of mouth crowd, or a rapport built with big name talent agencies, there is absolutely no reason for a one room bar to have a production company working there.

It just doesn't work.

The way it SHOULD go is the bar books the DJs. The DJs are NOT responsible for bringing the crowd, they're responsible for keeping the crowd. The bar spends money to advertise and bring people in, which they get from the bar sales and the door charge (if they charge a cover) and they pay the DJ a set amount.

The way it works now with a lot of these parties is the bar keeps all the bar sales and does none of the advertising, and the "promoter" is trying to pay for advertising AND DJs out of the same small stipend or portion of the cover charge. This is why DJs are not getting paid, there isn't enough money to go around on all that unless you've managed to build a really solid weekly (which takes time, effort and luck), or they skimp on advertising (which doesn't end well for anybody).

I'm sure plenty of people are going to disagree with me, because plenty of the people on this board are promoters, but I've been both a promoter and a DJ and I've done it both ways.

[djgrun]

There's a whole scene of house and progressive house nightclubs and DJs that never get posted on the buzzboard.

The only two choices are not top40 pure cheese and underground where no one gets paid. There's a ton of in between.

The residency I have right now pretty much lets me play whatever I want, and I'll do everything from brand new top40 hip hop to UK Garage to downtempo to House and all sorts of things in between. Another guy that I play with on the regular (Joey Muniz) doesn't play any cheese (he gets mad at me when we play together for putting on mainstream) and he plays so much he has to hand me gigs because he doesn't have time.

It's all in what you find and make it. :shrug:

I DJ hardcore, very dark techno/doomcore, breakcore, etc and do live PA of extremely raw acid techno and superpsychedelia on handbuilt roland gear, gameboys, bent toys, live electronics, etc. Very few clubs in the area are kosher with this sort of thing, top40 or not..... and you can imagine my idea of "cheese" reaches further than most other people's. It's all opinion though (and I have heard plenty of 'opinions' about what I'm doing, over the years)


Bourbon looks like a fun place, "Tantric" on friday down there was just brought to my attention and I think I'll be out for it. Will be fun to see old syndicate, and twice as nice if the place is pushing interesting sounds!


Robert

[Matt Sanborn]

I think the real key thing is this:

The whole concept of a promotion/production company came about because parties were being thrown in non traditional venues (ie not a nightclub or bar). But now, unless you can bring something special to the table like a brand name (Buzz, and all that Buzz has built over time), or a significant word of mouth crowd, or a rapport built with big name talent agencies, there is absolutely no reason for a one room bar to have a production company working there.

It just doesn't work.

The way it SHOULD go is the bar books the DJs. The DJs are NOT responsible for bringing the crowd, they're responsible for keeping the crowd. The bar spends money to advertise and bring people in, which they get from the bar sales and the door charge (if they charge a cover) and they pay the DJ a set amount.

The way it works now with a lot of these parties is the bar keeps all the bar sales and does none of the advertising, and the "promoter" is trying to pay for advertising AND DJs out of the same small stipend or portion of the cover charge. This is why DJs are not getting paid, there isn't enough money to go around on all that unless you've managed to build a really solid weekly (which takes time, effort and luck), or they skimp on advertising (which doesn't end well for anybody).

I'm sure plenty of people are going to disagree with me, because plenty of the people on this board are promoters, but I've been both a promoter and a DJ and I've done it both ways.

Sounds pretty spot on to me.

[The Logic Theorist]

I DJ hardcore, very dark techno/doomcore, breakcore, etc and do live PA of extremely raw acid techno and superpsychedelia on handbuilt roland gear, gameboys, bent toys, live electronics, etc. Very few clubs in the area are kosher with this sort of thing, top40 or not..... and you can imagine my idea of "cheese" reaches further than most other people's. It's all opinion though (and I have heard plenty of 'opinions' about what I'm doing, over the years)

Yeah, we have a big difference of opinion here. I think that most people want to have fun when they go out, and that doesn't sound like very fun music to me. But like you said, that's my opinion, and I certainly wouldn't tell you to change your style if you enjoy it and are getting what you want out of DJing.



Bourbon looks like a fun place, "Tantric" on friday down there was just brought to my attention and I think I'll be out for it. Will be fun to see old syndicate, and twice as nice if the place is pushing interesting sounds!

Bourbon is a really swank place. The food is great if you should happen to go early, the beer and alcohol list is extensive, the space is fun and it gets jammed with people.

[Matt Sanborn]

Bourbon is what used to be Blueroom right?

I dont go to Adams Morgan nowadays unless I have to, but if its the same place- yeah it can be a fun place to play. I was a resident at Blue Room years ago

[Neptune]

no, blue room and bourbon are different places

[The Logic Theorist]

Bourbon is what used to be Blueroom right?

I dont go to Adams Morgan nowadays unless I have to, but if its the same place- yeah it can be a fun place to play. I was a resident at Blue Room years ago

:yes:

They only made minor asthetic changes to the upstairs (and the booth is a lot smaller) but they made huge changes to downstairs and they greatly expanded the alcohol they serve there.

Blueroom was getting pretty empty towards the end, the change totally got a new crowd of people to come out.

[The Logic Theorist]

no, blue room and bourbon are different places

That's funny... because I've had residencies at both and I could swear I was walking into the same building.

[Matt Sanborn]

no, blue room and bourbon are different places


I dont think so...they have the same addy of 2321 18th St.

[Master Miguel Lush]

i get paid to stop DJing....



i win

[The Logic Theorist]

i get paid to stop DJing....



i win

I'll give you $5 to stop talking.

[Master Miguel Lush]

I'll give you $5 to stop talking.
you're gonna have to offer me more than that....



i'm an expensive whore.

[The Logic Theorist]

you're gonna have to offer me more than that....



i'm an expensive whore.

$5 and a shot in the mouth?

[Master Miguel Lush]

$5 and a shot in the mouth?:nono:

[The Logic Theorist]

:foamparty:

[LOGO]

Sounds pretty spot on to me.
Yep.
Me too.

[ciganka]

I will perform for Hello Kitty stickers but I didn't see that up on the list.

[OmniPresent]

no, blue room and bourbon are different places


i'm pretty sure you're wrong about that...

one thing to consider in this discussion is the amount of effort a local DJ puts into promoting the party they are playing at. if a DJ works hard to help spread the word about a party, and brings a lot of people to the event, then they're value to the promoter is MUCH higher than a DJ that simply plays his/her slot without doing anything to help the party other than playing their set.... if that is all you want to do, thats fine - but don't expect to get paid much, because you aren't helping the promoter/party make any money - therefore you probably aren't going to make much money either. not trying to say DJing isn't extremely important to a parties success, just pointing out that your set can be amazing, but if nobody is there, nobody is making money.

one more thing to think about is more often than not the club owners are the ones making the majority of the profit - not the promoters - it seems like there is this perception that there are all these money hungry promoters out there that are making a killing off of throwing parties, and screwing over the DJs... that just isn't the case most of the time. when you compare the amount of time and effort a lot of the promoters in this city put into trying to host an event with the amount of money they end up making - it's laughable - but the ones that keep doing it are the ones that love the music - same thing with the local DJs that keep playing for less than they deserve - they are having fun, and it shows - thats what matters most.

make sense?

[shade]

yah blue room is what bourbon used to be.

[spiggums]

so wait... let me get this straight...

Blue Room and Bourbon are the same place? :neener:

I think Phill nailed it on the head in terms of the role of the promoter for one room bars...

[OmniPresent]

I think the real key thing is this:

The whole concept of a promotion/production company came about because parties were being thrown in non traditional venues (ie not a nightclub or bar). But now, unless you can bring something special to the table like a brand name (Buzz, and all that Buzz has built over time), or a significant word of mouth crowd, or a rapport built with big name talent agencies, there is absolutely no reason for a one room bar to have a production company working there.

It just doesn't work.

The way it SHOULD go is the bar books the DJs. The DJs are NOT responsible for bringing the crowd, they're responsible for keeping the crowd. The bar spends money to advertise and bring people in, which they get from the bar sales and the door charge (if they charge a cover) and they pay the DJ a set amount.

The way it works now with a lot of these parties is the bar keeps all the bar sales and does none of the advertising, and the "promoter" is trying to pay for advertising AND DJs out of the same small stipend or portion of the cover charge. This is why DJs are not getting paid, there isn't enough money to go around on all that unless you've managed to build a really solid weekly (which takes time, effort and luck), or they skimp on advertising (which doesn't end well for anybody).

I'm sure plenty of people are going to disagree with me, because plenty of the people on this board are promoters, but I've been both a promoter and a DJ and I've done it both ways.


i didn't read this before my post...
i agree with most of what you said.
but i do feel like it doesn't hurt to help try to bring in the crowd as a local DJ - you are making yourself more valuable to the promoter and the venue - its not the DJs responsibility, but it is something a DJ can do to try to help a party find success.

[sinestro]

Question:

Do you think clubs/promoters take advantage of the fact that many dj's will play for next to nothing. Thus lowering the overall value of the local DJ on a regional scale?


I'll take this question one step further and ask a more important question

Do you think promoters in the DC/bmore area inadvertently pigeon hole local talent AS local talent and NOT world class talent, as some of the dj's in this area should be?

I know in California, they push their local Dj's as national or even international Dj's and support them as such. Why is it the opposite on this coast?

[OmniPresent]

I'll take this question one step further and ask a more important question

Do you think promoters in the DC/bmore area inadvertently pigeon hole local talent AS local talent and NOT world class talent, as some of the dj's in this area should be?

I know in California, they push their local Dj's as national or even international Dj's and support them as such. Why is it the opposite on this coast?


there are plenty of DJs in DC that are treated as national and international talent.... not sure if i agree with what you are saying - or maybe i just didn't understand you properly

[SOUL4SALE]

are u suggesting that the community should do more to gain exposure for their local djs?

[mojojones]

I'll take this question one step further and ask a more important question

Do you think promoters in the DC/bmore area inadvertently pigeon hole local talent AS local talent and NOT world class talent, as some of the dj's in this area should be?

I know in California, they push their local Dj's as national or even international Dj's and support them as such. Why is it the opposite on this coast?

The answer is: straight up playa hatin'

when a major DC promoter says things like "we draw the line at booking already established local DJs"

you wonder why they don't want support these established DJs, especially if they are from DC area? why not, whats the deal? is there a good reason for that?

[SOUL4SALE]

i didn't read this before my post...
i agree with most of what you said.
but i do feel like it doesn't hurt to help try to bring in the crowd as a local DJ - you are making yourself more valuable to the promoter and the venue - its not the DJs responsibility, but it is something a DJ can do to try to help a party find success.


I think its really important when i dj making a deal with a bar or establishment to make it clear that they are not the promoters but just the djs. This is why we had to end speakeasy at woo bar cuz they were looking for promoters not djs. They just didnt understand the difference:assslap:

[sinestro]

there are plenty of DJs in DC that are treated as national and international talent.... not sure if i agree with what you are saying - or maybe i just didn't understand you properly


Plenty as in you can count them all on one hand?
There are a number of Dj's that I know in this area that could blow the pants off of 99 percent of international dj's.
I'll give you an example....Tzeech.
He has been spinning now since 1991. Why is he a "local dj" ? He shouldn't be by any means. But if you consistently put him on a flyer in small letters below "the headliner" then he gets pigeonholed.

But Tzeech is just an example of an underlying philosophy that spreads across the region into philly and down to NC that if you live in the area, you are an opening dj and not a headliner.

This idea ties in with what we charge as DJ's as well.
If Dj Cocainesnorter charges 10k but sucks as a DJ, he gets put on the flyer as the biggest name (font size), gets the best time slot and because of this he could literally fart into a mic and people would dance due to preconcieved notions.

If Dj local guy charges nothing and has to beg to play he gets the opening slot.
Whatever happened to skill = payz the billz ?
it seems more like who you know = payz the billz now.

I think I'm rambling at this point, but it's something i've seen for a long time over the course of my 15 year dj career. When I spun in Calif in La and San Fran they did not treat local dj's as local and did not pay them 25 bucks and a bar tab. They got treated as headliners and they hyped them as such.


short version - perception is reality

[Matt Sanborn]

You got to take into consideration how much of a draw a particular local may have....and how many people are actually going to come out just to see them play.

[The Logic Theorist]

Plenty as in you can count them all on one hand?
There are a number of Dj's that I know in this area that could blow the pants off of 99 percent of international dj's.
I'll give you an example....Tzeech.
He has been spinning now since 1991. Why is he a "local dj" ? He shouldn't be by any means. But if you consistently put him on a flyer in small letters below "the headliner" then he gets pigeonholed.

But Tzeech is just an example of an underlying philosophy that spreads across the region into philly and down to NC that if you live in the area, you are an opening dj and not a headliner.

This idea ties in with what we charge as DJ's as well.
If Dj Cocainesnorter charges 10k but sucks as a DJ, he gets put on the flyer as the biggest name (font size), gets the best time slot and because of this he could literally fart into a mic and people would dance due to preconcieved notions.

If Dj local guy charges nothing and has to beg to play he gets the opening slot.
Whatever happened to skill = payz the billz ?
it seems more like who you know = payz the billz now.

I think I'm rambling at this point, but it's something i've seen for a long time over the course of my 15 year dj career. When I spun in Calif in La and San Fran they did not treat local dj's as local and did not pay them 25 bucks and a bar tab. They got treated as headliners and they hyped them as such.


short version - perception is reality

I really don't disagree with you, but I wanted to point out that just raw talent on the decks is not all it takes to make a headline DJ. It takes marketing, promotion, and that really undefinable star quality. Some people have it, and some just don't.

That's evident by the fact that not all of the Cali DJs that get hyped as national talent are really a draw anywhere else, no matter how much hype comes with them.

Also, what you're talking about happens just about everywhere, Cali must be unique in that respect. I know D:Fuse was shafted constantly in Austin (where he's from) even after he made it big.

[sinestro]

You got to take into consideration how much of a draw a particular local may have....and how many people are actually going to come out just to see them play.


When The Syndicate took over buzz couple years back we packed it completely with a line out the door. I believe it was one of the biggest nights nations had seen at the time.

I have always been of the belief that if you advertise your local dj as a headlining superstar, then people will perceive him/her as such. However that would be entirely up to the promoters to do that and they rarely have (with buzz and myself(as a promoter) being an exception )

Of course becoming a traveling superstar Dj nowadays is much different then it was in the early 90's. For one you have to have a hit record and a booking agent that is pushing you. So this is of course a detriment. But I still believe it is possible to push local dj's as much bigger then we now do.

Another example I'll give where this worked is the east coast boogiemen. Paul(the promoter at the time at tracks) headlined them every week and promoted the crap out of them as "big name superstars" and guess what? they became traveling big dj's. Another suprise here is Paul was a former promoter from L.A.
coincidence?


shit man
I've played vegas, san fran, LA, boston, florida, NYC, etc etc, have been playing out since 1993 and I'm considered "local". (this isn't a bitch or anything on my part, just giving another example)

[SOUL4SALE]

dude being a dj in this scene you have to deal with adversity so .. cope. plus the scene doesnt have the power and draw that it did when we first found it and you started playing in it. 18 year old kids dont want to go out and party and listen to house music and dnb till teh sun comes up. They want to listen to recycled trash and be just like everyone else at their high school. so there is no young crowd = dying

[Matt Sanborn]

but ECB becoming big had a lot to do with their production...more so than them playing at Tracks.

Having music out on 30 different labels=people wanting to book you worldwide...not what club you play at in your hometown

[SOUL4SALE]

if there is no demand then its harder to be a well paid dj.

[Matt Sanborn]

if there is no demand then its harder to be a well paid dj.


exactly.

we played Friday at FIVE with Mark Farina....we ended up having almost 200 people on our guestlist alone...the club was packed....

we got paid WELL.

[Master Miguel Lush]

exactly.

we played Friday at FIVE with Mark Farina....we ended up having almost 200 people on our guestlist alone...the club was packed....

we got paid WELL.
so you mean you got paid because my skinny latin ass showed up?


i want retribution

[Matt Sanborn]

so you mean you got paid because my skinny latin ass showed up?


i want retribution


How bout some of our new tracks?

:smooch:

[Master Miguel Lush]

How bout some of our new tracks?

:smooch:
ok, but no need for you to try to kiss me


mmmkay?

[sinestro]

but ECB becoming big had a lot to do with their production...more so than them playing at Tracks.

Having music out on 30 different labels=people wanting to book you worldwide...not what club you play at in your hometown


They were big before they put out a record.

As for the scene dying, I think that is a cop out.
No one throws all age parties or even warehouse parties where 16 and up show up. If you keep the scene in 21 and over bars, then of course your not going to get a young crowd into it. They can't get in!

Raves in the early 90's were more of a backlash to the clubs that at the time were playing homogenized music and catering to coke snorting yuppies. Raves were mainly about psychedelics and the idea of fusing technology with the spirit of the hippies from the 60's. Pushing boundaries with music, that sort of thing. Maybe we need to go back to that idea so that boundaries can again be pushed and the idea of dance and music can be furthered. It definitly seems as though we are in the same position musically that we were in 1987.

[john c]

Sinestro: Your thoughts can be commended on an idealistic level. but its just not how the world works however. marketing, networking, presence are all part of a very valid force when it comes to anything in life. Why would DJ-ing be any different? Its how the world runs. Its about who's bigger and who will bring in more $$$. if somebody is that damn talented, they need to use the media to let it be known and grown their fanbase. its simple. since when has the world worked on a principle such as pure talent? I mean do the best artists make the most money ever in life? Are the best musicians on top of the music charts? Of course not. And DJ-ing isnt any different.

[Matt Sanborn]

Sinestro: Your thoughts can be commended on an idealistic level. but its just not how the world works however. marketing, networking, presence are all part of a very valid force when it comes to anything in life. Why would DJ-ing be any different? Its how the world runs. Its about who's bigger and who will bring in more $$$. if somebody is that damn talented, they need to use the media to let it be known and grown their fanbase. its simple. since when has the world worked on a principle such as pure talent? I mean do the best artists make the most money ever in life? Are the best musicians on top of the music charts? Of course not. And DJ-ing isnt any different.


:star:

[K-netic]

It all comes down to how many MySpace friends you have.

[john c]

It all comes down to how many MySpace friends you have.

it certainly worked for Tila Tequila

[sinestro]

Sinestro: Your thoughts can be commended on an idealistic level. but its just not how the world works however. marketing, networking, presence are all part of a very valid force when it comes to anything in life. Why would DJ-ing be any different? Its how the world runs. Its about who's bigger and who will bring in more $$$. if somebody is that damn talented, they need to use the media to let it be known and grown their fanbase. its simple. since when has the world worked on a principle such as pure talent? I mean do the best artists make the most money ever in life? Are the best musicians on top of the music charts? Of course not. And DJ-ing isnt any different.

I realize the futility of what I am saying, but I can still hold onto that ideal because I think it could work if it was put to the test. As it has in Cali.

We definitly need more booking agents in this area or at the very least more Dj's on agents rosters. Not enough of this scene's dj's get out unfortunatly.
: /

[sinestro]

It all comes down to how many MySpace friends you have.


thats closer to the truth then you think ;-)

[Matt Sanborn]

I realize the futility of what I am saying, but I can still hold onto that ideal because I think it could work if it was put to the test. As it has in Cali.

We definitly need more booking agents in this area or at the very least more Dj's on agents rosters. Not enough of this scene's dj's get out unfortunatly.
: /


unfortunatley these days if you want to make it big as a dj- for the most part, you need to be putting records out.

of course they are entirely different skill sets- but thats the way things have evolved.

[sinestro]

unfortunatley these days if you want to make it big as a dj- for the most part, you need to be putting records out.

of course they are entirely different skill sets- but thats the way things have evolved.


Yeah man most definitly.
I saw it coming too around 1999 which was
why I put out a couple records back then.

I'm really waiting for some new badass style that is off the wall and fresh so i can jump on that bandwagon and riiiiide the gravytrain. =D
If history is correct, it should be soon!

[Matt Sanborn]

lol I hear you.

shit we have tracks out on Greenskeepers, OM records, Uniform and more...

Im waiting for our global bookings to start dammit.

[sinestro]

lol I hear you.

shit we have tracks out on Greenskeepers, OM records, Uniform and more...

Im waiting for our global bookings to start dammit.


Do you have an agent to promote you? =D

[SOUL4SALE]

maybe you should start a booking agency sinestro

[sinestro]

maybe you should start a booking agency sinestro


Been there done that
I threw my cell phone out my car window 5 years ago and never looked back lol
If someone else decides to do it, I'll give em everything I know for sure.

[mojojones]

Yeah man most definitly.
I saw it coming too around 1999 which was
why I put out a couple records back then.

I'm really waiting for some new badass style that is off the wall and fresh so i can jump on that bandwagon and riiiiide the gravytrain. =D
If history is correct, it should be soon!

Sinestro actually had one of the firstlabels on Beatport (and this was way back like 2002 or so) the DJ Beatport phenonenom was in its infancy . . .

he had put out one of my tracks and did he did a remix for it (that was one of his releases on his label) and i also did a remix for a track that he and Stroud did

both very early releases on Beatport . . .

now Beatport is the huge mp3 label industry standard . . .

Chris: you are in an enviable position . . .you neeed to bring it back for 2007

jump on the bandwagaon and riiiiide that muthafuckin gravytrain . . .

shit i would love to work with you again and there are plenty of talented producers in DC alone that would probably would want to work with you too . . .

do it do it

[sinestro]

thanx for the love mojo, but I've never really felt good at making music.
spinning it is always my passion. Kinda like Scott Henry I guess.
who knows though....Maybe when I feel comfortable with this party (http://rehabrecords.net) and I have a bit more time I'll spend some time making tracks again.

[mojojones]

thanx for the love mojo, but I've never really felt good at making music.
spinning it is always my passion. Kinda like Scott Henry I guess.
who knows though....Maybe when I feel comfortable with this party (http://rehabrecords.net) and I have a bit more time I'll spend some time making tracks again.

you could always run the label and put out other peoples music and do an occasional remix for them . . .

though promoting for a label can be a hell of a lot work but if you find someone with experience and willing to do it, it might work . . . just a thought :)

btw: actually have a track coming out on Justin Johnson's label, Cable, in November (also with a remix by Edan and Carlo and Justin as well)

i gotta give you props on that one for putting me in contact with Justin a few years back as well . . .

you da man!

[sinestro]

Justin is the coolest!
Make sure to tell that bitch I said "wutup"

The idea for a label is a definite yes. We ARE working on that, but have not found any tunes that grab our nads as of yet.

definitly send me some or point me to a link if you have some tunes that you think are super hot.

[5l1mm]

i usually demand my payment in virgins or sacrificed lambs, or sacrificed virgin lambs.

[TZEECH]

They were big before they put out a record.

As for the scene dying, I think that is a cop out.
No one throws all age parties or even warehouse parties where 16 and up show up. If you keep the scene in 21 and over bars, then of course your not going to get a young crowd into it. They can't get in!

Raves in the early 90's were more of a backlash to the clubs that at the time were playing homogenized music and catering to coke snorting yuppies. Raves were mainly about psychedelics and the idea of fusing technology with the spirit of the hippies from the 60's. Pushing boundaries with music, that sort of thing. Maybe we need to go back to that idea so that boundaries can again be pushed and the idea of dance and music can be furthered. It definitly seems as though we are in the same position musically that we were in 1987.

:inquisition:
you are right chris!
i've been saying the samething for years.
I PLAY DRUG MUSIC!
If your not f-up in a dark wharehouse somwhere then your going to get what i'm doing completely. It's a shame some of you never PLAYED a HUGE full scale RAVE or even been too one(DO NOT COUNT STARSCAPE!!!!!), if you have you would see and hear the differents between how the dj plays and acts.
The scene was better when the underground dictate what were the BIG tracks not what tracks are being downloaded.
When was the last time you heard a modern amthem?
anyway you rule chris, the rest are sucka dmc's
:mattsanborn: .......> i do like the name of the icon!!!!!!!

[TZEECH]

Yeah man most definitly.
I saw it coming too around 1999 which was
why I put out a couple records back then.

I'm really waiting for some new badass style that is off the wall and fresh so i can jump on that bandwagon and riiiiide the gravytrain. =D
If history is correct, it should be soon!



check out ALTER EGO!!!!
freaky weird funky, i think you'll like it.

[jukata]

meh... totally situation dependent.

for local friends, I'm happy to help support through music. (but would expect some drinks / door comps at min)


If I'm traveling over an hour or two though... I'd expect either to have a hotel room, or be paid enough to get my own room, at the very minimum, even for a friend. It's kinda fucked up for a promoter to have you play, get you sauced, then send you on a long journey home at 2AM. BTW - I don't consider crashing on a couch at the after party house "a hotel". I'd like the option to actually sleep when I'm tired.

[Quannum Logic]

meh... totally situation dependent.

for local friends, I'm happy to help support through music. (but would expect some drinks / door comps at min)


If I'm traveling over an hour or two though... I'd expect either to have a hotel room, or be paid enough to get my own room, at the very minimum, even for a friend. It's kinda fucked up for a promoter to have you play, get you sauced, then send you on a long journey home at 2AM. BTW - I don't consider crashing on a couch at the after party house "a hotel". I'd like the option to actually sleep when I'm tired.

waaaaahhhh! dude Genr8 slept on my couch for like a week, adam from Gein is sleeping on amber's couch (since Jeff & Glue are gonna be sleeping on my couch durring that time). to me a couch is totally acceptible.

[djgrun]

They were big before they put out a record.

As for the scene dying, I think that is a cop out.
No one throws all age parties or even warehouse parties where 16 and up show up. If you keep the scene in 21 and over bars, then of course your not going to get a young crowd into it. They can't get in!

Raves in the early 90's were more of a backlash to the clubs that at the time were playing homogenized music and catering to coke snorting yuppies. Raves were mainly about psychedelics and the idea of fusing technology with the spirit of the hippies from the 60's. Pushing boundaries with music, that sort of thing. Maybe we need to go back to that idea so that boundaries can again be pushed and the idea of dance and music can be furthered. It definitly seems as though we are in the same position musically that we were in 1987.



you are right chris!
i've been saying the samething for years.
I PLAY DRUG MUSIC!
If your not f-up in a dark wharehouse somwhere then your going to get what i'm doing completely. It's a shame some of you never PLAYED a HUGE full scale RAVE or even been too one(DO NOT COUNT STARSCAPE!!!!!), if you have you would see and hear the differents between how the dj plays and acts.
The scene was better when the underground dictate what were the BIG tracks not what tracks are being downloaded.
When was the last time you heard a modern amthem?
anyway you rule chris, the rest are sucka dmc's



Could not agree more with both of you guys. There's a lot of bullshit going on now where the only reason people "go out" is to hear the superbig names at superbig clubs. When these headliners go on you'll often even see the DJ looking bored, doing nothing special, sometimes drunk/sucking, the whole 9 yards. When you look around you'll see everyone "FEELIN IT" -- too bad most of them are either drunk, or have no clue and think this is when it gets good because it's "the headliner". Meanwhile, the opening DJ's tore the place up and nobody cared. This is absolute club mentality and has NOTHING to do with the original electronic music/rave scene.

Raves are about art, expression, and creativity. Clubs have nothing to do with art, expression, or creativity. That's a black and white statement, there are exceptions on both sides, but it's generally true.

I've been to plenty of *raves* before where the 10pm spot blew the whole place up and everyone there was dancing, even if only 20 people were there at that point.. only to have a DJ come on at 2am and suck and have 5% of the crowd in to it. That's because those people are actually there because of the music, not because of how much hype a DJ got, what records they've put out (how is that relevant at the moment they are throwing down a set?), or anything like that.

I have RARELY EVER EVER seen that happen in a club environment, except at the Edge (which honestly was closer to being a weekly rave than a club)


The club mentality turns the whole thing in to more entertainment-business style bookings/culture than the previous grassroots rave type of thing. And with the venues available in DC, of COURSE that happened! Bar sales are king, and packing in 500 under-21 kids that are there with passion and interest in the best possible music does very little for a venue with a liquor license.



Just some things to think about, and yes, there need to be more real underground events and they do need to be marketed to the RIGHT crowd


Robert


EDIT::::::::

While i'm on my soapbox, what's up with promoters saying stuff like "Come experience our culture" or talk about "The vibe" or anything like this, when they're throwing parties at places that are 21+ guys 18+ girls? These people have to be DELUSIONAL, places like that clearly have nothing to do with music, culture, or anything like it.

Also, what is up with all these big name DJ's coming to town who I've never even heard of, with the qualification that they've done remixes for madonna or britney spears etc? What happened.................................

[jukata]

to me a couch is totally acceptible.

You just proved my point. It's totally situation dependent.

Couches and floors are cool with the frat-boy dj. Noted.
now for those of us that don't live our lives for free Miller Light durring a beer pong game...

I have no interest in crashing on the party house floor/couch afrerwords with a crowd of tweeked out and/or drunkards yelling and stomping around. Done it enough to fill my desire for that sort of thing for life. These days, I want the ability to go to bed when I want to, not when the party dies. Seems fair to me.

[| Bass Drop |]

It's a shame some of you never PLAYED a HUGE full scale RAVE or even been too one(DO NOT COUNT STARSCAPE!!!!!)


Like TZEECH @ Unity '99

Holy shit that was a fuckin' party! I closed that bitch down!

Do you by chance still have the flyer? Mine is forever gone. :(

[Catalyst]

For one local promoter, I've played for a cheeseburger and fries before from the bar.

No joke, it was awesome.

[TZEECH]

Like TZEECH @ Unity '99

Holy shit that was a fuckin' party! I closed that bitch down!

Do you by chance still have the flyer? Mine is forever gone. :(
:ez:
MINE WAS LOST TOO!!!
I have the my badge still.

[Catalyst]

yah blue room is what bourbon used to be.

Where I had my first gig, thanks to Matt Sanborn and Joey Muniz... I miss that place.

[djgrun]

For one local promoter, I've played for a cheeseburger and fries before from the bar.

No joke, it was awesome.

That rules, food makes the world go around

Back in '99 when we were 17, the security at Nation used to let me and my friend into sugar on wednesdays for a fish sandwich from mcdonalds when shaun cox wasn't there to pave the way for us. That's really weird in hindsight

[Quannum Logic]

Couches and floors are cool with the frat-boy dj. Noted.
now for those of us that don't live our lives for free Miller Light durring a beer pong game...


listen you dick....its bud light....miller light is for the hoi polloi.

[The Logic Theorist]

I have no interest in crashing on the party house floor/couch afrerwords with a crowd of tweeked out and/or drunkards yelling and stomping around. Done it enough to fill my desire for that sort of thing for life. These days, I want the ability to go to bed when I want to, not when the party dies. Seems fair to me.

Ever tried sleeping on a couch in the VIP room during the party?

That's good times.

[jukata]

I did take a little disco nap right up against the speaker cabs at Rise once.
A severe lack of sleep and mental drain will allow a person to sleep damn near anywhere, and on anything.


Ever tried sleeping on a couch in the VIP room during the party?

That's good times.

[Catalyst]

You just proved my point. It's totally situation dependent.

Couches and floors are cool with the frat-boy dj. Noted.
now for those of us that don't live our lives for free Miller Light durring a beer pong game...

I have no interest in crashing on the party house floor/couch afrerwords with a crowd of tweeked out and/or drunkards yelling and stomping around. Done it enough to fill my desire for that sort of thing for life. These days, I want the ability to go to bed when I want to, not when the party dies. Seems fair to me.


Is acting like a princess a part of the whole "getting married" process or something? :catalyst:

I don't think Alec was saying that he'd crash a couch of an afterparty, just a couch in someone's place. What youre talking about, the whole party house thing, is completely unacceptable of course.

I think Alec is talking about the couch that's in the home of folks who crash after a night out, not the kind that keep the party going.

[Matt Sanborn]

It's a shame some of you never PLAYED a HUGE full scale RAVE or even been too one(DO NOT COUNT STARSCAPE!!!!!), if you have you would see and hear the differents between how the dj plays and acts.


Man I grew up djing in New Mexico. It was hard finding a party actually in a legit venue.

We had massive outdoor raves in the desert....a lot of times starting on Friday and going to Sunday night.

those were lots of fun, but to be honest- Id rather play in clubs.

[The Logic Theorist]

I did take a little disco nap right up against the speaker cabs at Rise once.
A severe lack of sleep and mental drain will allow a person to sleep damn near anywhere, and on anything.

It's even better when you get woken up by the promoter who introduces you to some saucer pupiled candy raver chewing on a pacifier and tells you she's your ride home.

In some ways I kinda miss "raves".

[Quannum Logic]

Is acting like a princess a part of the whole "getting married" process or something? :catalyst:

I don't think Alec was saying that he'd crash a couch of an afterparty, just a couch in someone's place. What youre talking about, the whole party house thing, is completely unacceptable of course.

I think Alec is talking about the couch that's in the home of folks who crash after a night out, not the kind that keep the party going.

:yes: in blacksburg, when we wanted to crash, there was a house with a bed, aero bed and couch that I, Chris, and Brendan respectively slept in....(granted that didn't happen untill 9am, but none the less it was avaliable.

[jukata]

Is acting like a princess a part of the whole "getting married" process or something? :catalyst:

hahaha, I doubt it. My girl would much sooner crash on an after-party couch than I would. She's way more hardcore than me these days.


I don't think Alec was saying that he'd crash a couch of an afterparty, just a couch in someone's place. What youre talking about, the whole party house thing, is completely unacceptable of course.

I think Alec is talking about the couch that's in the home of folks who crash after a night out, not the kind that keep the party going.


oh ya, sure I understand. I'm just giving him some grief.... because he WOULD be totally content to crash at the party house. A couch in a situation like you are describing would be acceptable, but again it's totally situation dependent. I'd crash under the couch at a construction site to play at Therapy Sessions for free. Hell, I'd work the door before my set!

[Catalyst]

oh ya, sure I understand. I'm just giving him some grief.... because he WOULD be totally content to crash at the party house. !

Of course he would, I wouldn't be surprised to find him in a gutter one day with a dead hooker.


not that there's anything wrong with that..

[Jay Selway]

You guys get paid?