Legs

[Big McLargeHuge]

just a question, and i most likely think i know the answer, but here goes. i recently added legs as a full day to my workout, instead of just running and doing a few calf raises, etc. (bout 2 months ago i added the legs day)

now, everything has gone up nicely. i started out light on everything, and have moved steadily up. i started doing deadlifts for the first time ever, along with squats. those two inparticular always scared me due to previous lower back issues, etc. basically, about 10 months ago i wrenched something in my lower back, had me on percocets for a week, couldnt lie flat, couldnt sit upright, etc.

that healed, and then about 7 months ago i hurt the same area again, no idea how. i was bending over to pick up a two gallon bucket of water, straightened up, and thats when i got the pain again.

ok, so i start out real light on squats and deadlifts. literally, a 25 pounder on each side. wanted to get my form right before going up. once i had that down, i started going heavy.

today i did legs, and i deadlifted 325lbs 7 times steady. but, at this point, my squats have not gone up as quickly, as today i only got 200lbs, 8 times.

no idea why, might be mental block, fear of hurting the lower back again, i dont know, but my squat weight increase is just going real real slow. im leg pressing around 425 now, so i have the lower body strength to go up. i just cant seem to do it though.

thoughts? advice? ideas? mocking taunts? anything?

[oh no its nick]

1) Watch the Dan John FitCast, take 50 mins and grab a drink/meal, best thing I've ever seen re: my squatting/DLing

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744&q=dan+john+fitcast+duration%3Along&total=2&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[hope the link works]

2) Make sure you're squatting in a power rack, with safety pins on the sides. That way, it'll take away your fear of falling with the weight, etc. 100% safe spotter

3) Squat injuries aren't from the exercise, but from form and mobility. That video should help a TON, and also make sure you're warming up correctly (no static stretching, do mobility stuff)

4) Change your rep scheme up if you've hit a plateau - try 5x5ing your squats for a few weeks and see how you do

5) Box Squat! Get a bench or set up one of those adjustable steppy things to about parallel and learn to box squat. It WILL help your form out a ton. Alternate that in with regular squats.

6) Accessory work! You may have stalled too if you're ignoring/slacking on acc. work. Make sure on leg day you're doing single leg movements (BB or DB lunges), make sure you're doing a hamstring dominant movement (RH, GHR, Leg Curls, SLDLs) and so on.

7) Get a training partner/someone to push you. It may just be mental. Get yourself angry as fuck, or get someone to get that competitive drive going and just go at it!


Those should help :yes: Let me know if anything's unclear :)

[oh no its nick]

Also, FitCast video aside, these are a few things I've learned while training with guys that can crush me with 2 fingers that have really helped my squat:

1) Head up, eyes facing at least parallel if not upwards all the time
2) Elbows under the fucking bar, not behind it
3) Fill your belly (not your chest, your belly) with air and hold it on the way down and up for each rep
4) 'Spread the floor' with your feet, don't let the knees come in
5) Lead the drive up with your head, keep your upper body as straight as you can
6) Don't lower the weight too slowly, you need it coming down slow enough to be safe but fast enough to take advantage of that stretch reflex

I was stuck at around a ~365lb squat for a while and about a month or so of going over what I said in my last 2 posts, and I was box squatting 405x5...hopefully you'll find the little tricks and issues that are holding you back and blast through the roof...form and mobility can make the biggest difference, it's crazy. Nice deadlift by the way, keep that up :)

[Big McLargeHuge]

see, i dont think its that i have hit a plateau, because i am going up, just real real slow, maybe 5 pounds a week, or ten pounds every two.

and i tried the smith machine when i started out, but the problem i had with that is the same problem i have with a lot of other machines, they lock your body into a certain position, stance, etc, and if your not perfectly symmetrical, like im not, then you can hurt yourself, get a bad lift, etc.

thanks for the links, will give them a lookover in a few here

1) Head up, eyes facing at least parallel if not upwards all the time

3) Fill your belly (not your chest, your belly) with air and hold it on the way down and up for each rep

5) Lead the drive up with your head, keep your upper body as straight as you can

i started real light on the weight so i could work on these things, so i am decent on most of your point, but these three i could definitely improve on. the breathing thing is going to help, i think.



i still think it might be a mental block type issue, once you hurt your lower back, you never want to feel that pain again

[oh no its nick]

Yeah, I'll definitely chat with you on AIM about this, but...never ever ever ever use the Smith Machine for squats or most exercises at all, great way to not progress and to hurt yourself. 5-10lbs a week added to a squat is a good thing man, I wish I still went up at that rate, haha. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you are progressing, sometimes other lifts hit a spree and make the steady ones (like your squat in this case) seem like they're lagging.

Box squatting will help you out and be safer than the smith machine ever will, and you can also use the hack squat machine to vary things for certain weeks to help you mentally put more weight on while feeling safer in a machine.

Also, I'm with you in the injury, had reconstructive surgery on my right knee after a meniscal + ACL + MCL disaster of an accident, and it took a long time while squatting and DLing to shake off the jitters...a long time. Big injuries like knees or lower back really suck :(

[2rip]

keep the dialogue going guys... i'm having HUGE squat problems right now too. i think i may have to revisit them weightless for a bit to master the form and then possibly move to dumbell squats until i get my weight up enough.

i'm totally killing myself when i do deadlifts which feels great because my legs don't work properly for about 5 days after my deadlift routine. however, the soreness/weakness interferes with me doing barbell squats. i went to do squats last week with 25's on each end and i felt myself losing form in that pivotal moment between the ups & downs. from what i've researched it is more beneficial to have your ass closer to the ground when you squat before exploding upwards. however when i do this i honestly feel as if my hams are doing more than my quads.

fucking predicament...

[oh no its nick]

i'm totally killing myself when i do deadlifts which feels great because my legs don't work properly for about 5 days after my deadlift routine. however, the soreness/weakness interferes with me doing barbell squats. i went to do squats last week with 25's on each end and i felt myself losing form in that pivotal moment between the ups & downs. from what i've researched it is more beneficial to have your ass closer to the ground when you squat before exploding upwards. however when i do this i honestly feel as if my hams are doing more than my quads.

fucking predicament...

How far apart are your DL days/Squat days?

Watching that Dan John video explains it better than I can, but basically next time you go to squat...

- Like I said earlier, head up, eyes forward or angled upwards. This forces you to lead with your head, keep your neck straight, and prevent bending forward
- Squat through your HEELS, not your toes. A lot of times this is a flexibility issue - if it feels awkward at the bottom of the squat and you keep leaning forward, put 5lb plates under your heels and squat with those until you get more flexible
- Like I said earlier as well, fill your belly with air. Expand it as much as possible with a deep breath, and then hold it and "lock" it into that position. Kind of as though you're trying to look pregnant, haha. This locks your core in a lot firmer and is a huge, huge help.
- Biggest part is - make sure you're squatting in between your legs, and not onto them. If you hold a dumbbell in both hands and try to sit as low as you can with a straight back, you'll notice that your body comes in between your legs, and your knees and toes point outward a bit. Apply the same thing to squatting.

An exercise I've found that has helped me a lot is before every leg day, i'll take a light warmup weight like 135, and just 'sit in the hole' with it (at the lowest position, ass to grass basically) for about 15-20 seconds, then squat up, rack it, rest 60s, then redo it 2-3 times. Really helps loosen up my hips and remind me where my form should be at once I up the weight.

Also taking the pad off the bar (if you haven't already) will put a little hair on your chest and add 100lbs to your squat, i promise :yes:

[Shawn_E]

that healed, and then about 7 months ago i hurt the same area again, no idea how. i was bending over to pick up a two gallon bucket of water, straightened up, and thats when i got the pain again.

Lift with your legs not your back.

[oh no its nick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPtPMe2bcFM - excellent squat form, he's going between his knees, elbows under the bar, back straight, looking up...and the weight/reps are insane haha

http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=4le5q13 - bad squat form, watch his legs/kness, he is squatting over them, not looking up, and as a result he has no power out of the hole and bends forward coming up, and has to barely GM the lift to finish it off

[2rip]

i think that will help me out a bit. i've been spreading my legs shoulder width and toes forward yet trying to go ass to grass and pushing through my heels. that would explain why so much of the tension is hitting my hams i think.

still going to go back to square one because i'm only 5 weeks into a training program and still need to develop proper form and develop my strength from there.

[ramz]

5) Box Squat! Get a bench or set up one of those adjustable steppy things to about parallel and learn to box squat. It WILL help your form out a ton. Alternate that in with regular squats.box squats are good, but I found them to limit how low I squat too much, so I started taking a crunch ball...whatever you call it... the giant beach ball thing that chicks use to do crunches... I take 2 55# hex dumbbells and put it on either side to brace it and then squat down to there... nice stop and go and allows you to go much lower than a bench or box... also waaaaay easier on your sacrum/illium and sacral illiac joint...

[ramz]

one of the worst things I see in the gym all the time are people that wanna stack weight on their back squat and lean forward like crazy... where in their squat their abs almost touch their thighs... you're supposed to keep your back as perpendicular to the floor as possible... one of the ways I've found to get my body accustomed to that motion is to do a front squat... obviously, you can't load up the weight as much, but it really forces you to balance your torso much more than a back squat will...

also, Matt, that Manta thing you recommended is teh cat's on ass... I love that thing...

[christauff]

1) Watch the Dan John FitCast, take 50 mins and grab a drink/meal, best thing I've ever seen re: my squatting/DLing

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529481301858251744&q=dan+john+fitcast+duration%3Along&total=2&start=0&num=100&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

[hope the link works]

Good video. Never have seen this guy before.

[oh no its nick]

box squats are good, but I found them to limit how low I squat too much, so I started taking a crunch ball...whatever you call it... the giant beach ball thing that chicks use to do crunches... I take 2 55# hex dumbbells and put it on either side to brace it and then squat down to there... nice stop and go and allows you to go much lower than a bench or box... also waaaaay easier on your sacrum/illium and sacral illiac joint...

i use the adjustable step things that people in my gym use for exercise classes as my box, i can get it from 2" off the ground to way higher than parallel :elad: Also with higher weight, it's important to have the flat surface in order to take the strain off the hips for the bottom of the movement, but with lower weight not as important. Hell you can McGuyver most anything to make a box as long as it's static and has a surface to come down on, so if the ball works, keep at it.

But it's true that box squats won't necessarily rocket your squat or change it a lot, they're a whole separate exercise, but they certainly do help with form. Most people have terrible squatting form with a bar on their back, but when they sit down on the toilet, they sit with perfect squat form :yes: A lot of it is getting comfortable to the idea of sitting back and down with weight on top of ya.

[oh no its nick]

And yes! Ramz has it right, I totally forgot to mention that, but front squatting is probably the best exercise you can do. You can't cheat, you can't compensate, you can't get away with ANYTHING doing front squats. They let you know right away when the weight is too much, and always force you to use correct form.

[Big McLargeHuge]

Yeah, I'll definitely chat with you on AIM about this, but...never ever ever ever use the Smith Machine for squats or most exercises at all, great way to not progress and to hurt yourself. 5-10lbs a week added to a squat is a good thing man, I wish I still went up at that rate, haha. I wouldn't worry too much about it if you are progressing, sometimes other lifts hit a spree and make the steady ones (like your squat in this case) seem like they're lagging.

i think this may be it actually. i think, at this point, i just saw all my other leg lifts and deadlifts going up much quicker, that the squat only going up 5 - 10 a week felt sluggish. i watched those clips, and while my form is good, i do notice myself start to rush when i get up in reps, which isnt good. i may stay at 200 for another week or two, and make sure my form, breathing, etc, is perfect before i start to try to go heavier again.

thanks for the links man

[oh no its nick]

Sure thing man, yeah if you want to keep the weight steady for a couple weeks and fine tune your form, that's a great idea. Deadlifts go up deceivingly fast for a while and usually slow down around the 4plate a side milestone, and a lot of times it makes squatting frustrating, haha. But then of course your deadlift will slow down, the squat will pick up, and the whole cycle starts again :traviswork:

You can also try having your heavier squat day, and then later on in the week, after any kind of a day (shoulders/arms, chest) do a regimen of front squats with light weight at the end of your workout in a 6x3 kind of rep scheme.

[oh no its nick]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=H7gvrC5lTt8

2:40 in = a way of learning how to squat that'll whip you in shape real quick :delirious:

[Big McLargeHuge]

another thing that helped wit my deadlifts (i know, this is a legs thread, but yeah) are hooks. i got a set of these because i kept having trouble with my grip when i started to go heavier on the weights.

http://i.b5z.net/i/u/230085/i/weight_liffting_hooks_reverse_grip_steel.jpg

from here

http://www.prowriststraps.com/inc/sdetail/44698


with these i have been able to steadily increase my weight without killing my fingers, or worrying about dropping the bar

[ramz]

cheater.

[Big McLargeHuge]

cheater.

die in a fire


it would only be cheating if i were trying to strengthen only my grip when deadlifting

i never tried using the wrist straps, but a buddy of mine had a set of these, and they worked. well. so i got a pair.

mr blue manta ray on the neck

[oh no its nick]

Haha, yeah straps are nice once in a while, but start practicing your hook grip. My overhand/underhand DL grip fails at around 450-470, but hook gripping I can hold a 240lb farmers walk handle in each hand without too much difficulty. It's about 3 weeks to a month of pain of your thumb getting used to it, and from then on you're gravy. I started out doing them on pullups, DB rows, Bent Over Rows, then slowly worked my way up to the deadlifts and farmers walks.

And CHALK. Chalk is a godsend. Best thing you could EVER buy for grip.

[ramz]

die in a fire


it would only be cheating if i were trying to strengthen only my grip when deadlifting

i never tried using the wrist straps, but a buddy of mine had a set of these, and they worked. well. so i got a pair.

mr blue manta ray on the neck
isn't the goal of any exercise to identify and strengthen weak points in the chain, including things like, you know, grip?

the manta doesn't count as a lift helper, though... I use it because I like my spine where it is...

[Big McLargeHuge]

the manta doesn't count as a lift helper, though... I use it because I like my spine where it is...

oh yeah, your excuse is a good one, but mine isn't, i got it. lol, ass. i actually have been using the manta thing myself, but am going to try to move away from that. it takes too much of the balance out of things, i think

and nick, what do you mean working on the hook grip, using the hooks or something else?

i am going to be going for 350 on my DL on friday, and the hooks at this point are helping a great deal. when i am under 300 pounds, for warmup and for muscle failure at the end, i dont use them, just for the heaviest sets.

does the alternating grip really help that much? i have yet to try it

[ramz]

I don't think it does anything to the balance of the lift... just puts the weight of the bar on your shoulders instead of your spine... but, oh right, you're only squatting 200#...probably different for you... :lol:

[Big McLargeHuge]

I don't think it does anything to the balance of the lift... just puts the weight of the bar on your shoulders instead of your spine... but, oh right, you're only squatting 200#...probably different for you... :lol:

so dead, so so dead

yeah, only 200 last week, but as i stated, its going up, it just seems slow, and like discussed, i am going to make sure of my form, make sure its right and im steady, before pushing that one.

how much you dl again?

and for those who dont know, the manta we are talking about is this

http://www.qfac.com/images/manta.gif

http://www.fullcirclepadding.com/displayPages/admin/products/images/dt_0mr136.jpg

[ramz]

I think I DL'd 255# last week... probably would have done more, but someone wanted to use my second rack... lol...

I was doing sumo deadlift high pulls last night and split my short right down the middle 4 reps in... short workout to say the least...

[oh no its nick]

Well the manta does gimp the lift/handicap weak points just like straps do...

And a hook grip is a technique used by olympic lifters especially, but also powerlifters, etc:

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/HookGrip-th.jpg

http://www.icofit.net/gym/resistance/basic_techniques/photo/hook2.jpg

Basically, you wrap the thumb around first, then the index and (depending on hand size) the middle finger over the thumb. It's like putting a steel lock on your hands. The pain however with the pressure on the thumb at first is pretty excruciating, but just like with squatting without a pad on the bar, it hurts for a few weeks, and then you get used to it and it doesn't hurt a bit. Give it a try.

[oh no its nick]

and yes, an alternating grip lets you hold WAY WAY more than a double overhand

[Big McLargeHuge]

Well the manta does gimp the lift/handicap weak points just like straps do...

And a hook grip is a technique used by olympic lifters especially, but also powerlifters, etc:

http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/HookGrip-th.jpg

http://www.icofit.net/gym/resistance/basic_techniques/photo/hook2.jpg

Basically, you wrap the thumb around first, then the index and (depending on hand size) the middle finger over the thumb. It's like putting a steel lock on your hands. The pain however with the pressure on the thumb at first is pretty excruciating, but just like with squatting without a pad on the bar, it hurts for a few weeks, and then you get used to it and it doesn't hurt a bit. Give it a try.

interesting. i think i will try to get used to that by doing pullups like that, or light weights. i still like the hooks, but like you said, they do gimp it a little bit

[oh no its nick]

interesting. i think i will try to get used to that by doing pullups like that, or light weights. i still like the hooks, but like you said, they do gimp it a little bit

Yeah, start out with it on pullups or hanging leg raises and work up to it. I did em for about 4-5 months before I could comfortably hold heavy weight hooked. If anything get straps instead of those metal hooks for when your grip fails, they let you at least grip the bar and whatnot