The Future of DJing: No more 'songs'

[empath]

Okay, so i've been thinking about this alot recently.

So, what's a DJ, and what's dance music?

A DJ is a guy that mixes songs in order, right?

I'm thinking that that is no longer necessarily the case.

With the new software coming out, sure, you can still do that. In fact, you can do it even easier than you can with using vinyl. But why should you when you can seriously advance dance music forward.

I'm just going to talk about trance, because that's what I know.

A typical trance record is about 6-9 minutes long. It has an intro, breakdown, melody, breakdown, outro... or something like that.

Why? Is that the ideal way to construct dance music? Or the right way to play a set, repeating the same structure over and over and over again? Of course not.

The reason why has to do with economics. You have to sell music on pieces of plastic. Vinyl only has the ability to play one 'track' at a time. Playing more than 2 records at a time is an unusual skill and playing more than 3 is damn near impossible for most djs.

So 'dance music' as sold now is largely designed to be 'complete' -- a full song in length, but also in uh... depth, i guess is the word i want to use-- it has all the parts needed for a full musical experience, from percussion to vocals to melodies. Only the intro's and outros are intentionally designed to be 'mixed'.

Fast Laptops and new software allow you to change all that.

Just as an example--- If you're playing trance, why should every record have a different bass kick? Say you have one that you really like and you just want to ride it out for 30 or 40 minutes... You can't really do that with vinyl. You can play around with EQ's but really, there's only so much you can do.

If all of your tracks are broken down into components and loops though, you can do that with software easily. Throw on a drum loop, add an acid line, add a melody... you can do everything in real time... with software synths and midi keyboards you can do even more.

And if you network a few laptops together, you can 'tagteam' with a few other guys and really do some elaborate stuff...

I think it's going to start with people just copying their records to their laptops and gradually adding their own new productions and sharing loops with other guys doing the same thing, but eventually, DJs and producers are going to see a market for it and start selling cds full of loops and synth patches so you can really deconstruct and rebuild their songs.

Does anyone else see things going the same way?

[Matt Sanborn]

Check out Ableton Live. I have it in the studio but most use it for dj applications.

Songs are a thing of beauty tho...just because you can mix 4 things together doesnt mean u should. Each track should be enjoyed for what it is, a production by an artist- first and formost....then remixing and mixing stuff with it secondary.

and playing multiple tracks at once is not easy. We are doing 5 turntables/2 mixers at once tomorrow at the park party for Section 8 vs Exit (4 djs) and that is no easy task. From the words of Ken from ECB who has done lots of mixes on multi mixer mass-amounts of decks: "No matter how well you can beatmatch putting 3 songs together or more usually doesnt sound good musically". So one must be skillfull in doing so.

anyhow- those where just my scatterbrain thoughts that maybe only caught the drift of what you were actually getting at- just my initial thought process on blerps I read

[RAMIRO]

i played with a friend using two mixers and 4 tables..

a hell of a lot harder than it looks..

also.. all the dj's that are involved need to be somewhat in tuned to what the other is doing or its just destin to sound like Union Station

[Matt Sanborn]

i played with a friend using two mixers and 4 tables..

a hell of a lot harder than it looks..

also.. all the dj's that are involved need to be somewhat in tuned to what the other is doing or its just destin to sound like Union Station


it is not easy at all.

two people try to both pitch adjust to lock up two tracks and if you are both adjustin the same time (riding the pitch) it can be insta-trainwreck with the quickness.

but we all are really in tune together and it sounds so cool I cant even tell you...tomorrow people will be blown.

Invisible scratch pickles meets house music.

juggling, scratching, etc- all to underground house.

:drool:

[empath]

I was mainly thinking of ableton...

But yeah, i know mixing 3 or 4 SONGS is hard.

That's why i'm saying NO more songs.

Build music out of loops, live... stop with records that have beginnings, middles and ends...

Obviously, it's going to take a lot of practice and preparation, but so does learning how to beat match and figuring out what keys your records are in.

AFAIK, ableton will even keymatch for you.

But what i'm talking about is NOT USING TURNTABLES.

And I'm talking about not using a laptop to just mimic what you can do with turntables. Use a laptop to do things that you CAN'T do on turntables.

One of those things being layering and remixing tracks on the fly.

[empath]

Like -- Fuck EQuing -- just drop the bassline and drum out completely from the song and instantly replace it with the next one. COMPLETELY drop the vocal from one record out and replace it with another....

Obviously, you can only do this with unmixed songs. That's why I'm saying people need to start selling tracks and loops seperately in addition to full songs. So you buy a CD with the new PVD single and everything that went into making, just like NIN did with their new single.

[elad]

isnt that what supahstar dj sasha is doing nowadays?

[empath]

:yes:

[Matt Sanborn]

you can do all that in ableton live 4.0 i believe....grab a copy of it.

[Matt Sanborn]

empath you better start making a lot two words or im going to have to pee on you.

sorry- but thats just how it is

[Matt Sanborn]

I'm talking full on golden shower too, not just a little dribble.

[SIXTO]

Yes he is.... But Richie Hawtin is taking everything to the next level.... He has surpassed almost everyone... He is a very smart man

[empath]

empath you better start making a lot two words or im going to have to pee on you.

sorry- but thats just how it is


"I'm"

[empath]

Yes he is.... But Richie Hawtin is taking everything to the next level.... He has surpassed almost everyone... He is a very smart man
That's a good point-- which DJs are doing this right now?

Anyone have links to live sets of guys doing this?

[RAMIRO]

Yes he is.... But Richie Hawtin is taking everything to the next level.... He has surpassed almost everyone... He is a very smart man

:yes:
he took that concept of breaking down a song to single out each component and then rework them all into a kick as set a long time ago

i believe he did that with DE9, CLOSER TO EDIT, and CONSUME (not 100% sure about the last one)

[Matt Sanborn]

eh screw punctuation- i am just lazy.

you are just dumb.

:wink:

[Matt Sanborn]

hawtin is really smart that is fo sho

[uberclkgtr]

hawtin is really smart that is fo sho

his mix CD from two years ago "DE9: closer to the edit" did exactly what empath describes - takes samples from songs and reworks them into a full mix. you can get the 2x12" of all the samples he used. they're either short samples or lock grooves. it's cool.

[Matt Sanborn]

yay for locked grooves...I will be playing some of those on table #5 tomorrow.....

[uberclkgtr]

yay for locked grooves...I will be playing some of those on table #5 tomorrow.....

cool! i have yet to work locked grooves into my sets. i've got a few, though not enough that i really know what to do with them. i'm still at at the song 1, song 2, song 3 level of my DJing.

you should pick up "closer to the edit" matt. it's got some great lock grooves on it. 120 of them.

http://www.planetxusa.com/pub/audio/djram/2001/91792.ram
http://www.planetxusa.com/pub/audio/djram/2001/91793.ram

[Matt Sanborn]

what makes you think I dont already have it? lol

:wink:

[uberclkgtr]

haha. i should have known. you're smart. i bet you even have two copies. :D

[Absolute Rules]

i played with a friend using two mixers and 4 tables..

a hell of a lot harder than it looks..

also.. all the dj's that are involved need to be somewhat in tuned to what the other is doing or its just destin to sound like Union Station

http://www.xfade.us/albums/buffalo/IMG_4870.sized.jpg
Ikarus F and Ramiro aka Above Gravity @ Buffallo Billiards Labor Day Weekend 2004

[RAMIRO]

:yes:

[SIXTO]

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19984

This is from the Ableton board.. Click on that link in the first post..

Hawtin is really taking it beyond mankind.....

enjoy



BOOM

[uberclkgtr]

interesting link sixto!

[Agent Sunshine]

I don't see what's wrong with songs, although song structure does not need to be as fomulaic as it usually is with dance music. I think song structure tends to give listeners something they can identify with. But what you are talking about isn't really a new thing, it's just that the tools for doing it have become cheaper and easier to use. I mean, the live PA thing has been around just as long as DJing has, really.

I also think your problem is mostly applicable to to trance. Most styles of jungle, techno, and breaks allow for and even tend to encourage more aggressive mixing. I can see why it would be frustrating to have a bunch of records that wouldn't allow you to do anything for a stretch of 4 minutes or so. Definitely no harm in trying new things, but I doubt that people doing live PAs is going to completely replace DJing anytime soon.

[SIXTO]

I would much rather listen to a Live Pa then someone djing... IMO... there is just something about it that is more deep and sexy...

[breakfiend]

trying to get 2 more cd players, built a malitia of samples (some created, some sampled) that will soon turn into a hoard. (really i could do with dvd players but - ouch - sorry bank statement just went 4 my jugular.

so basically ive breakon up parts of mixes that i like (hybrid for example do some real nice breakdowns but their drums are shite), then its a case of edit, edit, re-edit, till i have something i can use in a mix, 4 cd players, playin off various samples, then im hoping to scratch with the vinyl into my incy wincy teeny weeny alesis inekoey thngy (nice delays).

problem is either beat matching the whole bank before i put them to cd, or spending all of my time beatmatching on the fly (which means no real playing at all)- then ill end up with a prog sound- which i dont want.

the its just a case of playing with the edits i like and re-editing them till theyre just right.

[empath]

I don't see what's wrong with songs, although song structure does not need to be as fomulaic as it usually is with dance music. I think song structure tends to give listeners something they can identify with. But what you are talking about isn't really a new thing, it's just that the tools for doing it have become cheaper and easier to use. I mean, the live PA thing has been around just as long as DJing has, really.

I also think your problem is mostly applicable to to trance. Most styles of jungle, techno, and breaks allow for and even tend to encourage more aggressive mixing. I can see why it would be frustrating to have a bunch of records that wouldn't allow you to do anything for a stretch of 4 minutes or so. Definitely no harm in trying new things, but I doubt that people doing live PAs is going to completely replace DJing anytime soon.
i'm talking about blurring the boundaries between a pa and a dj set.

It's a lot harder to do a 4 or 5 hour PA than it is to do a 4 or 5 hour dj set.

But if producers start releaseing their tracks as seperate parts and loops, it puts a lot of tools that are only available to people doing a live PA into the hands of DJs.

I mean, play other peoples records, play your own stuff, do remixes, whatever. Don't limit yourself to playing only your own music or only other peoples music.

I think this will initially depend on DJ collectives trading loops and stuff first, though..

[Agent Sunshine]

Yeah, I don't see many producers being interested in releasing the pieces of their songs like that. What makes top end producers stand out is not just the way they put the parts together, but the way that they engineer drum sounds, bass sounds, etc. Photek is famous for spending a year getting his drums to sound right. I can't imagine he'd just turn around and hand them out to anyone who wants to mess around with them. It's a nice idea, but since we're talking about people's jobs, you have to account for the business aspect of it as well.

[ao125]

empath you better start making a lot two words or im going to have to pee on you.

sorry- but thats just how it is

more people need to take up this as a pet peeve.

a-motherfucking-space-lot

[proximity]

well first of all .. most dance tracks are not songs.

[midas]

if im understanding this right - and i very well may not, i would think that if edm went in the direction of people just playing pre-fabed loops then the creativity and innovation that goes into making good edm would go right out the window. dont get me wrong, experimenting is great, and i think people who push the boundaries of live performance are second to none, but if you take the "song" out of the equation, then who would put their heart into producing 10 sec. loops? how much could you really get across with just clicking on beat 24 then slapping hook 32 on top of it?

[Bioteknik]

well first of all .. most dance tracks are not songs.

depends on the genre really. I'd say that 85% of mine are set up like a song, intro, (pseudo)verse, (pseudo)chorus, repeat, outro. imagine the songs you're hearing on the radio don't have any vocals, they're pretty darn similar.

[empath]

if im understanding this right - and i very well may not, i would think that if edm went in the direction of people just playing pre-fabed loops then the creativity and innovation that goes into making good edm would go right out the window. dont get me wrong, experimenting is great, and i think people who push the boundaries of live performance are second to none, but if you take the "song" out of the equation, then who would put their heart into producing 10 sec. loops? how much could you really get across with just clicking on beat 24 then slapping hook 32 on top of it?
quite the opposite, really..... It just moves creativity out from the producer to the dj...

[proximity]

depends on the genre really. I'd say that 85% of mine are set up like a song, intro, (pseudo)verse, (pseudo)chorus, repeat, outro. imagine the songs you're hearing on the radio don't have any vocals, they're pretty darn similar.

was just being difficult :gotme:

[Busy Child]

hip hop artists have been doign this with vinyl for a while now. I dont see why we need to use such expensive computer equip like ableton.

[Tails]

Expensive... Live costs $400...

Anyone seen Shadow's "Live and On Time" DVD? Fucking sweet. Five turntables, three mixers, three CDJ-1000s, three EFX-500s, two AKAI samplers... he uses all of them at the same time.

It takes him months of practice to put that show together, and he cannot deviate at all. It's a very delicate balance. His crate has to be organized exactly or he'll grab the wrong record; he doesn't have time to look. Shadow has skills, but the concert is heavily scripted. He's recreating his tracks from the original samples.

Live'll do it in real time, if you want, and you can be a lot more creative.

For the record, Live doesn't do shit for you -- including beatmatching. Traktor beatmatches for you; Live doesn't. Just like working with four or five turntables, working that many sources together is difficult.

Highly recommend checking out the Shadow DVD if you're at all interested in what people are doing differently.

Sasha's Essential Mix from last week was done with Live. Not very interesting, but he does sample the bass riff from the new Gorillaz and works it into a new track.

(haha, how could I stay away from THIS thread..?)

[empath]

For the record, Live doesn't do shit for you -- including beatmatching. Traktor beatmatches for you; Live doesn't. Just like working with four or five turntables, working that many sources together is difficult.

RA: And the rest is History. So I guess you don't have to beatmatch with the Ableton right?

Sasha: You don't have to beatmatch, but I definitely miss beatmatching sometimes. The Ableton is not really a new way of Deejaying, it's more like a new different option of a way of Deejaying and live remixing, kind of a 'mashup' between the Dj and the live artist. But in the end what comes out of the speakers is still a Dj set. There's so many things that I've always wanted to do with my Dj sets, but the technology was limited. With the Ableton Live there are a million things that I'm now able to do, like last week when I was playing at Fabric (12/11/04)..... at one point I was playing six tracks simultaneously.

[Paxus]

I think its all about being experimental and pushing the technology
available at your fingertips. When i started spinning with cds, i read
articles on vinyl dj'ing to try and learn. The problem was that a lot
of the material didn't apply after a certain point. That's where I had
to basically make up/discover things as I went along. Really that's
where I started to realize where I could take things beyond the
realm of standard dj'ing.
It becomes less about A to B, and more about what A and B have
in common and where. You can mix out of any point, it just takes the
right hand to change the melodic elements into rhythmic elements.
I don't wanna sound like a supreme overlord of mixing, its just
what i've dealt with and learned has been moving toward this over-
arching ideal.
To a certain extent artists do already release drum loops and tools
as part of their records. Hell, Shamen used to release samples on
their cds to allow the listener to remix what they'd done. I think it
also takes a hip-hop/crate digger mentality to see where pieces
can be changed in a song, not necessarily looking for a mixing point,
but maybe a building point or moment where a tangent would be
not out of place.
I ramble. Great responses so far
-&rew

[Jay Selway]

I'm already working on a dj / live set using Ableton Live.

Embrace the new technology, its a good thing.

[empath]

this thread was mostly motivated by me being bored as hell of guys playing records.

I'm bored doing it, and i'm bored of watching other people doing it :) It's too easy to do, there are too many djs, there's no mystery anymore. I want to listen to a dj set again and have no idea how they're doing what i'm listening to...

[Tails]

cyzum: I'm also doing the live remix/PA thing with Ableton Live. I want to have a demo up in the next few months, but converting and warping tracks takes a long time.

About the Sasha quote... with Live, basically, you have to beatmatch once. You can then save your beatmatching as warp markers in an analysis file, which gets saved with the track... however, you do have to sync the track up with the metronome very tightly, or it'll show when you start working with the track. Right now, I have a harder time getting things in time in Live than I do with CDJs, ironically, because it's not easy to nudge in Live. Live's philosophy includes that nudging should never be necessary, but that means that you have to be perfect when initially matching your track to the metronome. Beatmatching during the performance is eliminated, which is a good thing because the performer can spend his/her time doing something creative, instead.

Sasha doesn't have to do anything because he has a team of people who takes his audio files, converts them, cuts them up, and warps them. He doesn't have to do any of the technical preparation. The files then get sent via FTP to Sasha for use in Live.

What Sasha is doing is a bead of sweat on the iceberg. It's a start, and I'm glad that he is -- in some sense -- legitimizing Live as a DJ tool with his reputation. We have a long way to go, though... and I have a feeling that you will be pleasantly surprised and mystified by some of the results in the future, John. I've started rewiring Reason into Live, and with MIDI clips for drum loops and riffs and basslines and pad sequences, which can be retuned to match the song, or have their fundamental sounds change... well, it's pretty exciting stuff.

If you're bored, give Live a try.