US Soldiers Shoot Family in Front of Press

[AmandaHuie]

Click the link to witness the pictures, but beware they are haunting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/05/middle_east_shooting_in_tal_afar/html/1.stm


January 19, 2005

The following is an account by Getty Images photographer Chris Hondros
from Tal Afar, Iraq, about 40 miles west of Mosul. A U.S. military
statement released after the incident said "military officials extend
their condolences for this unfortunate incident," according to the
Associated Press. The military said that, so far this year, at least
five suicide car bombers have struck Iraqi security troops and U.S.
military patrols at checkpoints in the area.

A routine foot patrol -- a dozen or so men from a platoon, carefully
walking the dusky streets of Tal Afar just after sundown.

Usually little more happens than finding someone out after curfew,
patting him down and then sending him home. On daylight patrols,
sometimes, troops stop to briefly play with children or even drink tea.
On evening patrols -- past curfew -- no one is on the streets, and the
men are extra-vigilant and professional.

Tal Afar is an ethnically mixed town, though primarily Turkoman, and
had only days before been the scene of a gun battle between U.S. forces
and local insurgents.

On the evening of Jan. 18, as we made our way up a broad boulevard, in
the distance I could see car making its way toward us. As a defense
against potential car-bombs, it is now standard practice for foot
patrols to stop oncoming vehicles, particularly after dark.

"We have a car coming," someone called out as we entered an
intersection. We could see the car about a 100 meters away. The car
continued coming; I couldn't see it anymore from my perch but could
hear its engine now, a high whine that sounded more like acceleration
than slowing down. It was maybe 50 yards away now.

"Stop that car!" someone shouted out, seemingly simultaneously with
someone firing what sounded like warning shots -- a staccato, measured
burst. The car continued coming. And then, perhaps less than a second
later, a cacophony of fire, shots rattling off in a chaotic,
overlapping din. The car entered the intersection on its momentum and
still shots were penetrating it and slicing it. Finally, the shooting
stopped, the car drifted listlessly, clearly no longer being steered,
and came to a rest on a curb. Soldiers began to approach it warily.

The sound of children crying came from the car. I walked up to the car
and a teenaged girl with her head covered emerged from the back,
wailing and gesturing wildly. After her came a boy, tumbling onto the
ground from the seat, already leaving a pool of blood.

"Civilians!" someone shouted, and soldiers ran up. More children -- it
ended up being six all told -- started emerging, crying, their faces
mottled with blood in long streaks. The troops carried them all off to
a nearby sidewalk.

It was by now almost completely dark. There, working only by lights
mounted on ends of their rifles, an Army medic began assessing the
children's injuries, running his hands up and down their bodies,
looking for wounds. Incredibly, the only injuries were a girl with a
cut hand and a boy with a superficial gash in the small of his back
that was bleeding heavily but wasn't life-threatening. The medic
immediately began to bind it, while the boy crouched against a wall.

From the sidewalk I could see into the bullet-mottled windshield more
clearly. The driver of the car, a man, was penetrated by so many
bullets that his skull had collapsed, leaving his body grotesquely
disfigured. A woman also lay dead in the front, still covered in her
Muslim clothing and harder to see.

Meanwhile, the children continued to wail and scream, huddled against
a wall, sandwiched between soldiers either binding their wounds or
trying to comfort them. The Army's translator later told me that this
was a Turkoman family and that the teenaged girl kept shouting, "Why
did they shoot us? We have no weapons! We were just going home!"

There was a small delay in getting the armored vehicles lined up and
ready, and soon the convoy moved to the main Tal Afar hospital. It was
fairly large and surprisingly well outfitted, with sober-looking
doctors in white coats ambling about its sea-green halls. The young
children were carried in by soldiers and by their teenaged sister. Only
the boy with the gash on his back needed any further medical attention,
and the Army medic and an Iraqi doctor quickly chatted over his
prognosis, deciding that his wound would be easily repaired.

The Army told me it will probably launch a full investigation.

[uberclkgtr]

:crying2:

[Shinin*Sta]

that is really f'd up

[Shakey]

my goodness. i think he should have the same punishment.

[KDS]

my goodness. i think he should have the same punishment.

Fucked up? Yeah

But punished?
For what? The Soldier did nothing wrong.


Note- Before anyone attempts to flame me, think about what I am saying. Then think rationally about what you are about to post.

[uberclkgtr]

Fucked up? Yeah

But punished?
For what? The Soldier did nothing wrong.


Note- Before anyone attempts to flame me, think about what I am saying. Then think rationally about what you are about to post.

So soldiers on patrol are supposed to fire on any moving car? Reread the account of how fast everything happened. And read the comment by the officer - there will be an investigation. Apparently you're much more willing to abrogate responsibility than commanding officers are. :rolleyes:

[DeAtHmOnGeR bEaR]

Fucked up? Yeah

But punished?
For what? The Soldier did nothing wrong.


Note- Before anyone attempts to flame me, think about what I am saying. Then think rationally about what you are about to post.
The article said that less than a second after the warning shots had been fired, the car was directly shot at.

I'm thinking rational - do you think that maybe, for just one second, the father/driver of the vechicle was dealing with scared children in the back of his car instead of instantly taking his foot off the gas? Yes, he should have stopped that moment, but what's half a second here or there?
And now he's dead with his wife. And his children have no parents to care for them.

[BizarroCub]

Yeah, I could have sworn the point of "warning shots" was to give them a chance to comply. Don't see how they could have complied in "less than a second".

[Buddafly]

I'm a little torn on this one. looking at it from the soldiers POV. they've had car bombers coming at them before. for all they know this was going to be the same thing. I would like not to think that this was not an act of hate, but more an act of survival. a car bomb doesn't have to get that close to kill someone when it goes off.

On the evening of Jan. 18, as we made our way up a broad boulevard, in
the distance I could see car making its way toward us. As a defense
against potential car-bombs, it is now standard practice for foot
patrols to stop oncoming vehicles, particularly after dark.


when you see an oncoming car- at 50 yards away, you may not have a lot of reaction time (to get out a warning *and* take action to keep yourself safe) depending on how fast it's coming at you.

I'm in no way saying what they did was right, but I'm also saying that it wasn't wrong.

[BizarroCub]

But there's no mention of it charging at them or anything of that nature.

If you're going to fire warning shots to try and get them to stop, you should generally give it a second to see if they do and assess the situation. You don't fire a warning shot, then keep firing. That kinda defeats the purpose.

[Big McLargeHuge]

The article said that less than a second after the warning shots had been fired, the car was directly shot at.

I'm thinking rational - do you think that maybe, for just one second, the father/driver of the vechicle was dealing with scared children in the back of his car instead of instantly taking his foot off the gas? Yes, he should have stopped that moment, but what's half a second here or there?
And now he's dead with his wife. And his children have no parents to care for them.


agreed its pretty fucked about the family, but to be honest, a half a second over there is literally life and death more often then not

[DeAtHmOnGeR bEaR]

agreed its pretty fucked about the family, but to be honest, a half a second over there is literally life and death more often then not
Okay, I agree with that, but like Grizz said, if you're not going to give them time to stop, then what's the point in the warning shots?

I'm sorry, this sort of stuff gets me riled up. I can't stand the thought of children being seperated from their parents.

[Buddafly]

*types and deletes*

sorry I posted, because you won't understand my side anyways.

[Agent Sunshine]

Yeah, we've discussed similar incidents here before, and my position remains that given the situation, the soldier might have acted poorly but most certainly not criminally. Rather, it speaks to the hopelessness of the situation we face in Iraq. Iraq has gone from being a theoretically troublesome but mostly toothless adversary to the central training and recruitment ground for worldwide terrorism. Our people made that happen. They are idiots.

[Big McLargeHuge]

Okay, I agree with that, but like Grizz said, if you're not going to give them time to stop, then what's the point in the warning shots?

I'm sorry, this sort of stuff gets me riled up. I can't stand the thought of children being seperated from their parents.

yeah, you are very right about that. but once again, from my own personal experiences and from what i saw while over there, you take the time to hesitate to pull the trigger, the next thing you know there is a thousand pound bomb going off at assasins gate as your convoy is pulling out of the green zone.

[DeAtHmOnGeR bEaR]

*types and deletes*

sorry I posted, because you won't understand my side anyways.
I do understand where you're coming from.
I didn't say the soldier deserved to get punished, I just think that maybe the situation could have been handled a little better.

But you know what they say, hindsight is 20/20.

[Buddafly]

I just think that maybe the situation could have been handled a little better.


you think, but you can't *know* unless you're actually there. it's easy for all of us to say what they did was wrong and they should have handled it better, but when you're talking about your life... you can't tell me you'd actually know what you would do if you were faced with that situation.

[uberclkgtr]

agreed its pretty fucked about the family, but to be honest, a half a second over there is literally life and death more often then not

Very true. It's a fucked up situation they're in over there. I doubt they did it out of hate - it likely was about survival. But the horror and sadness of this situation shows how precipitously the value of life has fallen over there.

The most wrenching thing was the soldiers dealing with the crying, bloody kids. Obviously they cared about them - took them to the hospital, etc.

War makes good people do horrible things.

[DeAtHmOnGeR bEaR]

you think, but you can't *know* unless you're actually there. it's easy for all of us to say what they did was wrong and they should have handled it better, but when you're talking about your life... you can't tell me you'd actually know what you would do if you were faced with that situation.
But you know what they say, hindsight is 20/20.

[BizarroCub]

War makes good people do horrible things.

Which is why one would hope our government would go to it cause they had to...not because they wanted to...

[uberclkgtr]

Hopefully an investigation into this can help something like it to not happen again. If procedures are set up regarding stopping civilian cars that can minimize threat to the troops and ensure civilians are not killed, then we'll be closer to winning the peace over there. We can't even hope to have peace over there if innocent people are getting routinely slaughtered like this.

[uberclkgtr]

Which is why one would hope our government would go to it cause they had to...not because they wanted to...
:werd:

[BizarroCub]

Hopefully an investigation into this can help something like it to not happen again. If procedures are set up regarding stopping civilian cars that can minimize threat to the troops and ensure civilians are not killed, then we'll be closer to winning the peace over there. We can't even hope to have peace over there if innocent people are getting routinely slaughtered like this.

But I thought firing over 10,000 cluster bombs was waging "humane" war.

[: ORI :]

about as humane as "Shock and Awe"

[A.J.]

i think i would rather have a US patrol blow up a school bus full of children then risk letting it get close enough to a base or group of soldiers or any of our people or contractors that are over there.

I think its easy to talk about what should happened thousands of miles away in the past

[BizarroCub]

i think i would rather have a US patrol blow up a school bus full of children then risk letting it get close enough to a base or group of soldiers or any of our people or contractors that are over there.

LOVELY!

[n-root]

Welcome to the United Territories of America.

Here when we say "Liberty or Death we mean it. And by "Liberty" we mean AMERICAN LIBERTY and that means you will stay in your homes until we say you may exit them or you will be considered a terrorist dissident and will be exterminated accordingly. Enemies of DEMOCRACY will not be tollerated to live amongst the FREE PEOPLES of these great new territories until proper leadership that conforms to the UTA's Great American Way are found and are incarcerating and exterminating these scourges to freedom on their own.

I REPEAT... CITIZENS CEASE AND DESIST FROM YOUR DEFIANCE OF OUR CONTROL! WE WILL NOT STOP UNTIL YOU ARE FREE TO WALK YOUR STREETS WITHOUT FEAR OF DEATH FROM A CONTROLLING REGIME! OH AND PLEASE STOP SMOKING YOUR HASHEESH NOW! I CAN TELL YOU ALREADY... THAT SHIT AINT GONNA FLY FOR MUCH LONGER!

[BizarroCub]

:haha:

[PYVND]

If I were an Iraqi child, I would think these people were aliens sent down to destory my people. The contrast between the way soldiers look and the way Iraqis look is amazing.

[n-root]

I agree completely although if I were an Iraqi child I think I would be looking at Martyrdom as a career goal as well.



All 'off the cuff' comments asside for a moment though ..... Those people must be so deathly afraid to even attempt to live their own lives these days. My prayers and heart goes out to them all. I wish there was something we as American's could do to remedy all these problems, but there really is not. I pray that the citizens of the world are able to understand the predicament that we as American's are in, in that the educated urabanite masses do not number great enough to usurp the administrative electoral decisions of the ignorant and rural majority making us powerless to stop the right-wing Juggernaut of Freedom and "MORALITY"

[BizarroCub]

I agree completely although if I were an Iraqi child I think I would be looking at Martyrdaom as a career goal as well.

*ding ding ding* We have a winnah...

[EmmaK]

i'm just happy to see that some of you actually support our soldiers and the fact they have to follow orders to protect themselves, and therefore their troop as well. the military goes through back- and mind-crushing training to get ready for war, and part of it is so they're ready, willing, and able to perform all duties and orders assigned to them.

in this case, that involved destroying an approaching vehicle that was picking up speed rather than slowing down as it saw the soldiers on the horizon. would you rather they stop to ponder various potential passengers in an oncoming vehicle after curfew, or that they act in their best interest of self-protection and the upholding of orders from their commanders? what tune would you be singing were this story about yet another suicide car bombing, this time of a group of american soldiers out at night to keep watch over the town?

in no way am i saying "yay, war rocks!", just that you need to keep in mind that soldiers are trained killing machines, meant to follow orders, whatever they may be. the entire concept of war is one i detest, along with imperialism and spreading american gov't ideals. however, i am able to see the difference between choosing to support of our troops versus supporting the war and everything that comes with it. so while i hate what this war is doing to so many people, along with the tragedy of those civilians losing their parents, i still side with the soldiers.

[PYVND]

I side with innocent people that have nothing to use to protect themselves.

I hope this whole Iraq mess will be a lesson for the idiots in charge (who have no concept of reality) and who are influencing the president far too much. I supported the war early on (getting rid of Saddam was a good idea) but what has happened is inconceivable to most of us. Your arguement seems to work, except that it is very cold and without any real meaning. Yeah, I support the soldiers too, but I think the best thing for them is to not be sent into a war without any real planning of any kind. Saying, oh it's not TOO bad that innocent people are dying every day--I support the troops is a border-line crazy statement to make.

[PYVND]

Very true. It's a fucked up situation they're in over there. I doubt they did it out of hate - it likely was about survival. But the horror and sadness of this situation shows how precipitously the value of life has fallen over there.

The most wrenching thing was the soldiers dealing with the crying, bloody kids. Obviously they cared about them - took them to the hospital, etc.

War makes good people do horrible things.

What did you expect the soldiers to do? Shoot the children too? It is a sad state of affairs when NOT killing children is translated as kindness.

[KDS]

So soldiers on patrol are supposed to fire on any moving car? Reread the account of how fast everything happened. And read the comment by the officer - there will be an investigation. Apparently you're much more willing to abrogate responsibility than commanding officers are. :rolleyes:


If you roll your eyes like that, they might fall out of your head :-)

seriously, you tell me to reread the account of what happened. I submit to you that i dont have to. I have been in that exact situaion numerous times during my participation of the wars. I would like to see you on a check point, in a world of unkowns. Then, naybe your comments will have more weight than your typical "armchair quarterback approach"

There will always be an investigation, bottom line. It is the basis for future TTP's.
We have been setting up roadblocks since 2 weeks into this thing, and nothing has changed. as VBIEDs are deployed more often against our troops, the reaction time has significantly been reduced. It all comes down to percieved threat.

THe soldiers that are wrong, will be held accountable. But these soldiers, having been in a definitively shitty circumstance, will all have a heavy heart until they too return to the earth.

[KDS]

What did you expect the soldiers to do? Shoot the children too? It is a sad state of affairs when NOT killing children is translated as kindness.


True to a point. But I argue that your comment is an issue of perception. THe soldiers did their job by teating the kids. Fuck, its the least they could do. Triaging the wounded is engrained in Battle Drills. Casevac procedures cover events like this. SOmehow, i suspect that you wont be able to look past your emotional boundaries on this issue.

[PYVND]

True to a point. But I argue that your comment is an issue of perception. THe soldiers did their job by teating the kids. Fuck, its the least they could do. Triaging the wounded is engrained in Battle Drills. Casevac procedures cover events like this. SOmehow, i suspect that you wont be able to look past your emotional boundaries on this issue.

I can not get beyond the tragedy. Iraq is a god da*n tragedy. It was a tragedy when the west supported Saddam (and now insist on giving him a fair trial). It was a tragedy when the Shiites were not supported in their 1991 uprising. And killing entire families and leaving orphans is a tragedy. We should have known better. This could have been avoided if we had had better foreign policy.

[tigermomma]

Those people must be so deathly afraid to even attempt to live their own lives these days.
Very true but the same goes for the soldiers. Everyone is in a constant state of fight or flight. Think what that must do to one's judgement. Imagine having your 6 children in the car after curfew, trying to get home, and you see soldiers illuminated in your headlights. You see guns, you then hear gunfire. Your heart is pounding a hundred beats a second, you adrenaline pumping into overdrive. Your foot twitches and presses on the accelerator. Your muscles tense up and you cant move. You think 'if I just keep up speed and dont do anything untowardly then they wont do anything to my family and I.' Then the first bullet tears through your muscle and your foot slams into the accelerator.

Then imagine the soldiers. Put into a life or death situation EVERY SINGLE DAY. Every corner and darkened doorway could hide an enemy. Every car coming down the street or abandoned on the street side could hide a bomb. Every person walking down the street glancing covertly about could be hiding a gun in the folds of their clothes or even worse a bomb strapped to themselves. Then imagine the fear when a car is slowly making its way down a deserted street after curfew? Sure half a second isnt a long time, but when searching cars after dark is SOP then I would think the second a driver sees a troop of soldiers they would slow down.

Fear and adrenaline make people do things they wouldnt normally do. I dont think any of us have the right to judge who was to blame here because clearly both sides and more importantly the horrid situation are to blame.

[tigermomma]

I can not get beyond the tragedy. Iraq is a god da*n tragedy. It was a tragedy when the west supported Saddam (and now insist on giving him a fair trial). It was a tragedy when the Shiites were not supported in their 1991 uprising. And killing entire families and leaving orphans is a tragedy. We should have known better. This could have been avoided if we had had better foreign policy.
You cant judge a tragedy like this based on our inadequate foreign policy. Sure we shouldnt be over there at all, but we are, and tragedies are going to happen. Dont put blinders onto these situations by simplifying it to bad politics. Its no longer about that. I think we should be way past bitterness about being over there and more focused on what we need to do to get OUT of there.

[n-root]

In times of peace members of the military get life handed to them in order to compensate for the danger in which they are willing to place themselves. To imply that they deserve pity or compassion from citizens for the "hard" part of their job is fucking ridiculous. Fuck that. The rest of us pay full price for our perscriptions and groceries to live day to day life. Soldiers do not. Without war they would be getting paid for nothing. They are sleeping in beds they decided to make themselves. Prison guards and underwater welders endanger their lives every day as well and are equally deserving of parades, pomp. and circumstance as the soldier in Iraq as is the jacknut flippin beef at McDonalds.. MY support of troops will come when it is warranted, when they are FORCED (by draft for example) to do that and not when its THEIR FUCKING JOB TO DO THAT THEY ARE ALREADY PAID FOR!


Fear and adrenaline do no such things though. I hang off of 80 foot walls clinging to small holds and am filled with both as muchg as I can be (once again by my own choice) does that make it OK to gun you down? Kevin deserves better than a dead mom and a sorry excuse if you ask me and so do Iraqi children.

[Big McLargeHuge]

Fear and adrenaline make people do things they wouldnt normally do. I dont think any of us have the right to judge who was to blame here because clearly both sides and more importantly the horrid situation are to blame.


very well stated, as was said before, these guys and the people who have been there know what it is like to live in that constant tension. hell, when i was there, we were sleeping in tents outside the palace, every single night near dark there were 3 to 5 mortar rounds lobbed into our area. after the second week or so you begin to not hear them, except when they land real close, but you always realise that if one hits the tent, you are all fucked.

living under that kind of tension for a year, that kind of stress is only imaginable to some people. to say you get the same feelings from a gun battle or taking a shelling as you do from doing a little weekend rock climbing with the boys, well, thats just about as stupid as it sounds

[PYVND]

You cant judge a tragedy like this based on our inadequate foreign policy. Sure we shouldnt be over there at all, but we are, and tragedies are going to happen. Dont put blinders onto these situations by simplifying it to bad politics. Its no longer about that. I think we should be way past bitterness about being over there and more focused on what we need to do to get OUT of there.

Yes, killing families must make for an excellent exit strategy then. And what of it when the US does leave Iraq? Is that all? Do we leave the country to burn with a fire we ignited?

Being a super-power should carry responsibility, and I am not seeing that responsibility exercised. That is the point--it being turned into some kind of "support the troops" thing is a low blow. Of course we don't want the troops to die! Maybe they need to have a better system of warning cars to stop. Shining a flash light and firing bullers may not be the best way because I'm sure there are lots of flash lights and guns in Iraq right now.

People like you are what's wrong with the world today. Stupidity masqerading as patriotism. Peace.

[n-root]

very well stated, as was said before, these guys and the people who have been there know what it is like to live in that constant tension. hell, when i was there, we were sleeping in tents outside the palace, every single night near dark there were 3 to 5 mortar rounds lobbed into our area. after the second week or so you begin to not hear them, except when they land real close, but you always realise that if one hits the tent, you are all fucked.

living under that kind of tension for a year, that kind of stress is only imaginable to some people. to say you get the same feelings from a gun battle or taking a shelling as you do from doing a little weekend rock climbing with the boys, well, thats just about as stupid as it sounds


It's their fucking job! As far as adrenaline and fear are concerned the neuro-chemical adrenaline is the fucking same in both sides of the comparison, the fear may not be but what the hell do you think these soldiers and reservists were getting paid to fucking do? Be in shape? They are supposed to be mentally prepared for all this and that means not freaking the fuck out and gunning down innocent people. If thats not the case a lot of soldiers need to either open their mouths about the system's flaws, start doing their job's the right fucking way, or pay the fucking price in military prisons for murder.

[tigermomma]

People like you are what's wrong with the world today. Stupidity masqerading as patriotism. Peace.
Thanks. :D I'll be starting bootcamp in less than 60 days. How about you?

[Agent Sunshine]

Er... had the wrong quote in here before. Obviously I was referencing n-root's post. I am dumb.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to n-root again.

[Agent Sunshine]

Let's put it this way, I'm perfectly willing to fight and die for a cause that I feel justifies it. Fighting for this zombie nation against a bunch of ragtag locals and international terrorists we fucking let into Iraq for a poorly defined cause doesn't interest me in the least. You can get all smarmy and superior about "serving your country," I'm sure Napoleon's legions thought they were pretty hot shit too.

If you've been there and you know what it's like, then you must know how much worse it is for the Iraqis.

[tigermomma]

*ugh*

Nevermind, this is a stupid argument. :ontome:

[Big McLargeHuge]

sigh, yeah, because all the training in the world can prepare you for every possible situation so you dont freak out and blah blah blah. that has got to be one of the most naive view points i can imagine. understandable that its easy for people to say things like that when they are sitting on a pc far away from what is going on.

yeah, this argument is pretty pointless


Thanks. :D I'll be starting bootcamp in less than 60 days. How about you?


should be a good time, i went through mine a few years back, was fun, really, well, ok, not really :spliff:

[n-root]

Yeah take your own advice. Im sure it's easy to make assumptions about who I am but hey its understandable that its easy for people to say things like that when they are sitting on a pc far away from what is going on :shrug:

[n-root]

Furthermore, "naive" is thinking that it's your employers job to train you for EVERYTHING that can happen at work. It's that same personal accountability and initiative that separates the wheat from the chaff in the civillian world as well.

[EmmaK]

n-root, i would like to know if you are considering the other side of the argument at all. i don't mean agreeing with it, or saying you think it's superb, just if you're even taking it into account on a deeper level. the best logical arguments are going to stem from those who are able to dissect and analyze every facet of a complicated issue, not just their own side. i think you're making some good points, even though i largely disagree with them, and i'm sure that there are other people in the thread who are taking into account the psychology at work in defending only one side, and thus examining both. i'm just wondering if you're one of those people, considering both sides, or if your sole purpose is to push your viewpoint. i get why anyone would choose to acknowledge the points on their side, because it gives a feeling of security--that your opponents 'have nothing'.

the thing is we're across an ocean and have the liberty to sit around and theorize. i hold more stock in the opinions of those board members posting who are in the military, and have a true concept of what it's like to see situations like that, not on the news, but half a mile from their camp. fundamentally, our troops are risking their lives while we walk around pondering the abstract game of war and imperialism, while we go to clubs and bitch how our favorite headliners haven't been brought in yet, while we stop into any number of restaurants, get coffee or a drink with a slew of local friends, while we tap tap tap away the keys of our computer for kicks and call up whomever we please on our cell phones. i'd be interested to see the reactions of our anti-military contributers in this thread, had they already lost a brother/cousin/sister/friend in the war, and then chosen to argue this story. would you be so hardline anti-military, such refusal to see the soldiers' side?

please do not interpret these questions as accusations of character or refusals of your right to defend an argument. i'm just curious when i read responses and see such vehement anger towards those individuals whose station overseas you'd never be willing to take. why is that? why would you be so unwilling to serve our troops, when you're so willing to reap the benefits of living in a country with the ammenities and opportunities that such power affords?

[spinal cracka]

this is only one side of the story. what actually happened could have been different.

[Big McLargeHuge]

n-root, i would like to know if you are considering the other side of the argument at all. i don't mean agreeing with it, or saying you think it's superb, just if you're even taking it into account on a deeper level. the best logical arguments are going to stem from those who are able to dissect and analyze every facet of a complicated issue, not just their own side. i think you're making some good points, even though i largely disagree with them, and i'm sure that there are other people in the thread who are taking into account the psychology at work in defending only one side, and thus examining both. i'm just wondering if you're one of those people, considering both sides, or if your sole purpose is to push your viewpoint. i get why anyone would choose to acknowledge the points on their side, because it gives a feeling of security--that your opponents 'have nothing'.

the thing is we're across an ocean and have the liberty to sit around and theorize. i hold more stock in the opinions of those board members posting who are in the military, and have a true concept of what it's like to see situations like that, not on the news, but half a mile from their camp. fundamentally, our troops are risking their lives while we walk around pondering the abstract game of war and imperialism, while we go to clubs and bitch how our favorite headliners haven't been brought in yet, while we stop into any number of restaurants, get coffee or a drink with a slew of local friends, while we tap tap tap away the keys of our computer for kicks and call up whomever we please on our cell phones. i'd be interested to see the reactions of our anti-military contributers in this thread, had they already lost a brother/cousin/sister/friend in the war, and then chosen to argue this story. would you be so hardline anti-military, such refusal to see the soldiers' side?

please do not interpret these questions as accusations of character or refusals of your right to defend an argument. i'm just curious when i read responses and see such vehement anger towards those individuals whose station overseas you'd never be willing to take. why is that? why would you be so unwilling to serve our troops, when you're so willing to reap the benefits of living in a country with the ammenities and opportunities that such power affords?


:twothumb: very well put, i honestly could not have stated that better, but that summed up what i wanted to say.

[n-root]

I have considered the other side of the coin on this issue. and while I am sympathetic to human nature and error I do not feel that sympathy is a valid excuse for failure to do ones job correctly.
I will not make any acceptions for other individuals that I would not allow myself in regards to code of ethics and conduct.
Try not to assume things about my character like I wouldn't take their place as you hardly know me. If I believed in the cause I would gladly fight bside these men. Also, please don't assume that I hold "vehement anger" towards any individual simply because I believe that they should adhere to conventional accepted standards of wartime conduct and should be prosecuted before a court and for any grievous and atrocious crimes against humanity of which they are guilty.

[Big McLargeHuge]

I believe that they should adhere to conventional accepted standards of wartime conduct and should be prosecuted before a court and for any grievous and atrocious crimes against humanity of which they are guilty.



why should they go before a court if you have already branded them as guilty of these crimes by only one persons side of the story?

[n-root]

One side? Let's see we got the Military thats one side, the surviving family members (side #2), and the PRESS (witness)

[n-root]

http://www.comicbookgirl.com/pictures/art/other/countvoncount.jpg
Spend time with me. I can help you!

[empath]

i fucking hate republicans.

[EmmaK]

Try not to assume things about my character like I wouldn't take their place as you hardly know me. If I believed in the cause I would gladly fight bside these men. Also, please don't assume that I hold "vehement anger" towards any individual simply because I believe that they should adhere to conventional accepted standards of wartime conduct and should be prosecuted before a court and for any grievous and atrocious crimes against humanity of which they are guilty.

please do not interpret these questions as accusations of character or refusals of your right to defend an argument. i'm just curious when i read responses and see such vehement anger towards those individuals whose station overseas you'd never be willing to take. why is that? why would you be so unwilling to serve our troops, when you're so willing to reap the benefits of living in a country with the ammenities and opportunities that such power affords?

please re-read the bolded sections from each of our posts, quoted above. although it might be hard to imagine, my post was only directed to you for the first paragraph. the "you" thereafter was the general you, like the word "one". however, you, in the particular sense, are saying you've considered the other side, but that doesn't come across in any of your arguments. i'm not pro-war, but perhaps you think so? i'm extremely anti-war--but right now, things like that are mere mental constructs, because the fact is, the war already exists. so be for or against it, it doesn't change that we are over there, and we have a choice whether or not we choose to support our nation's blood--our troops. that is not the same as supporting the way. i'm talking about THE PEOPLE from our country that are over there, not our GOV'T.

in this case, yes it is tragic that a civilian family was torn apart. but the soldiers did not "fail" to do their job "correctly", in fact they were acting upon their training and fulfilling their assignment, which unfortunately hurt civilians. they were not pro-actively choosing to kill civilians. they were not "failing" as their job. they were not defying orders. they did not commit "grievous and atrocious crimes against humanity"--they WERE doing their job, as best they knew how. this is a direct question now--to you, n-root: what would you have done? given your assignment, and being surrounded by a major war around you every day and night, separated from your entire family and life that you know--would you have followed orders and fired shots, or would you have just waited and waited for the vehicle to approach? would you have been willing to hope or assume that you weren't about to be brought down by a suicide car bomb?

p.s. on the subject of counting...i'm not talking about the press--they are not part of my argument. i'm talking about two sides to imagine--yours, the anti-military rhetoric, and that of the military, the soldiers, the people who are actually dealing with the situations you comdemn. so that's two, not three. your attempt at web fu is wasted.

p.p.s. i'll be pro-active about this one...john, i hope that wasn't directed at me, being that i am not a republican. that is all :thumbsup:

[n-root]

please re-read the bolded sections from each of our posts, quoted above. although it might be hard to imagine, my post was only directed to you for the first paragraph. the "you" thereafter was the general you, like the word "one". however, you, in the particular sense, are saying you've considered the other side, but that doesn't come across in any of your arguments. i'm not pro-war, but perhaps you think so? i'm extremely anti-war--but right now, things like that are mere mental constructs, because the fact is, the war already exists. so be for or against it, it doesn't change that we are over there, and we have a choice whether or not we choose to support our nation's blood--our troops. that is not the same as supporting the way. i'm talking about THE PEOPLE from our country that are over there, not our GOV'T.

in this case, yes it is tragic that a civilian family was torn apart. but the soldiers did not "fail" to do their job "correctly", in fact they were acting upon their training and fulfilling their assignment, which unfortunately hurt civilians. they were not pro-actively choosing to kill civilians. they were not "failing" as their job. they were not defying orders. they did not commit "grievous and atrocious crimes against humanity"--they WERE doing their job, as best they knew how. this is a direct question now--to you, n-root: what would you have done? given your assignment, and being surrounded by a major war around you every day and night, separated from your entire family and life that you know--would you have followed orders and fired shots, or would you have just waited and waited for the vehicle to approach? would you have been willing to hope or assume that you weren't about to be brought down by a suicide car bomb?

p.s. on the subject of counting...i'm not talking about the press--they are not part of my argument. i'm talking about two sides to imagine--yours, the anti-military rhetoric, and that of the military, the soldiers, the people who are actually dealing with the situations you comdemn. so that's two, not three. your attempt at web fu is wasted.

p.p.s. i'll be pro-active about this one...john, i hope that wasn't directed at me, being that i am not a republican. that is all :thumbsup:

I replied to you first (see numbered list). My learn to count post was in reference to this:
why should they go before a court if you have already branded them as guilty of these crimes by only one persons side of the story?

Oh, and please shut the hell up about "Web-Fu" you sound like an idiot.

[bboyneko]

US Military is in the right in this one..in a place as volatile as that if a car is coming after curfew, refuses to stop..then your a dead man. Its tragic but they shouldnt have been out after curfew.

[Liftedtrance]

that story is sad as hell.

but that story may not accurately represent what really happened and the exact amount of time that it happened in.

an investigation into this to figure out exactly what ocurred will hopefully help determine what really happened, and how things like this can be avoided in the future.


this reminds me, i wonder what the status is on the investigation about the soldier that shot the iraqi guy in the head and said "now he's dead."

[uberclkgtr]

If you roll your eyes like that, they might fall out of your head :-)

seriously, you tell me to reread the account of what happened. I submit to you that i dont have to. I have been in that exact situaion numerous times during my participation of the wars. I would like to see you on a check point, in a world of unkowns. Then, naybe your comments will have more weight than your typical "armchair quarterback approach"

There will always be an investigation, bottom line. It is the basis for future TTP's.
We have been setting up roadblocks since 2 weeks into this thing, and nothing has changed. as VBIEDs are deployed more often against our troops, the reaction time has significantly been reduced. It all comes down to percieved threat.


:yap: "i was there." :yap: i do commend you. but this makes it OK to kill civillians why? while having been there may make you aware of what these soldiers faced, it does not give you any moral high ground. when a soldier is given a weapon, he or she has a certain responsibility when using that weapon. the stakes are much higher when misused. with the stakes being high, the mandate to act responsible with the weapon is that much more important. if the soldier acts irresponsibly, then he or she must face the consequences. manslaughter is manslaughter, intentional or not. there's no moral ambiguity here.


THe soldiers that are wrong, will be held accountable. But these soldiers, having been in a definitively shitty circumstance, will all have a heavy heart until they too return to the earth.

i can agree to that. for sure.

[elad]

im certain that was not the 1st or last time something like that happened.

so there is a car approaching. so the car wont stop.

ever heard of "shooting at the tires"? or "shooting at the engine"?

what about their "night vision googles" and other imaging technology... a carbomb full of people is a bit of a waste of potential martyrs, dont cha think. fuckin jarhead idiots.

the THEYRE-COMIN-RIGHT-AT-US mentality is a bunch of bullshit.

[EmmaK]

Oh, and please shut the hell up
you're the last person who should tell me to shut up. i'm not the one spreading false rumors about people.

by the way, you have yet to answer any of my questions. they aren't rhetorical--i am truly curious to know your answers.
if you aren't willing to answer them, say so, but to simply ignore them is poor manners.

[n-root]

To which questions are you refering? If you can exract them from the masses of text you posted Ill be happy to answer them.

Spreading false rumors? Hmmm I can only assume you would be refering to my comment to Kristen that "I thought she was married with kids or at least thats what I gleaned from the board, I could be wrong who knows I don't know the chick really"

Yeah theres a real rumor in there OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *spead* *spread* *false* *false*

Drop your drama

[tigermomma]

:haha:

This is toooo much!!! :afterbuzz:

[Big McLargeHuge]

:haha:

This is toooo much!!! :afterbuzz:


too much indeed.

not sure where it was read that i said my being over there gave anyone a moral high ground or the right to kill civilians, what i actually said was that the killing of innocents was pretty fucked up, especially leaving kids like that, but the soldiers did not act in the wrong. and shooting out tires is a great suggestion, and its especially good in the movies, as for real life, if a car is racing towards you in an area known for car bombers, it wont stop, and you shoot the tires?? yeah, you die. good call.

i realise that a civilian will never understand what it is like to be a soldier, or a marine, and also never fully understand what those go through, and that is why its so easy for civlians to chide and critique them. its always easier to critique what you dont fully understand

[elad]

hmmm....

M-16 (at the very least) versus crappy 14 inch wheels? come on now. they couldve blasted the front axel off the car. and the car wouldve stopped or teh driver wouldve shat his pants and then stopped.

like i said

THEYRE COMING RIGHT AT US!!! :scared:

http://southpark.aktualne.cz/epizode/epi103n.jpghttp://southpark.aktualne.cz/epizode/epi103o.jpg

[Zimma]

This is a terrible story and we will hear thousands more like it before this comes to an end.

However, despite my emotional reaction to the story, and at the risk of sounding cold, curfews are in place in order to prevent occurences like this. The adults driving the truck were aware that the curfew existed, so let's not be so quick to point the blazing finger of blame in the soldiers' direction. They are in a constant state of alertness. Expecting someone to do their job is perfectly reasonable of you, but our soldiers have been at war for extended tours of duty, fighting in urban settings, against guerilla tactics, and in many cases against combatants disguised as civilians. They have already done their job, they should have had relief. Extended periods of extreme stress in hostile environments when you are in constant mortal danger is enough to cause ANYONE to make a poor judgment call. Again, the blame rightfully rests on the administration that sent them there with a bullshit excuse to wage war and a complete and utter lack of tactics to carry out the mission.

[EmmaK]

Yeah theres a real rumor in there OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO *spead* *spread* *false* *false*
yes, there is a false rumor in that. because chad and i are neither married nor parents, and i am not pregnant.
:haha:
This is toooo much!!! :afterbuzz:
yeah it is too much, so why don't you just be quiet. the only person you should laugh at is yourself, for not acknowledging that the proper way to clear up a misconception is by directly asking the party involved, rather than passing along the question to yet another outsider. you’re both 26 and should know better by now.

anyway, i think it's pretty shameful that no one is giving props to the soldiers in this thread, on this board, and that you're willing to discount their opinions, as if you know better than them what it's like to be abroad in war. especially since i KNOW plenty of us have family and friends who are serving, or who have served. you don't have to be pro-bush, pro-gov't, pro-war, et cetera, in order to be pro-troops, pro-troops meaning in support of them--the people involved. again, you don't have to support the military as a construct or what in stands for, in order to be appreciative and supporting of those with the gall to serve in it.

the soldiers involved in the accident will live the rest of their lives with that experience gnawing at them--i find it hard to believe that they would ever do something like that intentionally, or that they were making rash decisions with no reference to orders. if you really want to argue against what happened, consider arguing against the nature of their orders or training. not one of you has answered seriously what you *imagine* you might do in a situation like that.

[tigermomma]

Misconception and curiosity are two very different things though one can certainly lead into the other when ignorance is involved. Brock and I are roommates and best friends, things are mentioned in passing, thats all.

PS. I laugh at myself constantly...its the only thing that keeps me sane :wink:

Also there were a few people that defended the soldiers actions. There are always at least two sides to every story and twice as many perspectives. People just tend to get heated about war and death, especially when the line between supporting the war and supporting the troops is so difficult to define. Many people cant distinguish between the two.

I do agree with Roman on the need for personal accountability and if what happened that night was a mistake then of course punishment needs to be meted out. It is much MUCH easier to judge and condemn behind a computer, with no direct experience in war, and with only one article to base an argument on.

The philosophical, intellectual, and opposing posturing on this board is one of its greatest parts however, so....

:D

[n-root]

[bboyneko]

i am fairly sure the training has it that you should blast the living shit out of a car that wont stop, especially at the driver area. Shooting at the tires just wont cut it when your in a 24 hour war zone.

[Big McLargeHuge]

Also there were a few people that defended the soldiers actions. There are always at least two sides to every story and twice as many perspectives. :woot:

think there were more then just a few, but the negative always drowns out the positive, in this case those against and those railing on the soldiers are just shouting louder then those giving them props.

as i said before, the soldiers in this situation did nothing wrong, they acted as they should, no matter how fucked up this certain outcome may be, they acted as they were trained. trust me, i know that quite well. it is also true that what these guys are going to have to live with, the nightmares from seeing those kids like that, well, that will haunt them for the rest of thier lives.


the soldiers involved in the accident will live the rest of their lives with that experience gnawing at them--i find it hard to believe that they would ever do something like that intentionally, or that they were making rash decisions with no reference to orders. if you really want to argue against what happened, consider arguing against the nature of their orders or training. not one of you has answered seriously what you *imagine* you might do in a situation like that.

go back and re read some of my posts, and as for what i would have done in this same situation, to be honest, the same exact thing they did

[san dino]

an analogy -

say for some reason a state of military emergency was declared in the US. you get in your car and drive around despite the curfew. you get killed by soldiers after you drive thru their warning shots at a checkpoint.

it's a stupid way to die, but not evidence of bloodlust.

again it's kinda rank the way people jump on a case of accidental death in a warzone and use it to say the us soldiers are evil savages. again, there's no outrage against the insurgents, who kill, extort, and rape captives like it's a nyc trend.

like all wars, there is a lakefull of paranoia going around.

[EmmaK]

go back and re read some of my posts, and as for what i would have done in this same situation, to be honest, the same exact thing they did
:sillyme: not you, dorkus, i was asking my fellow 'civilians'.

[Big McLargeHuge]

:sillyme: not you, dorkus, i was asking my fellow 'civilians'.



rgr that, heh, sorry, need to read a bit better on a monday morning. dorkus? :spit: lol

[2rip]

it's a sad story & i don't agree with what happened

but it's also reality. how could this have been prevented when we've got people coming at our soldiers in any direction. so we've gotta quit putting the blame on ourselves all the time. we're at war and people are going to die. notice that when any of our soldiers die in combat they are, to us, innocent victims of war - especially when we are close to them.

now don't anyone go sending me harassing pm's or negative rep over this. i NEVER get into political discussions cuz there's too many touchy people on this board to have an honest discussion but i couldn't help but chime in.

[Methodus]

in this case, yes it is tragic that a civilian family was torn apart. but the soldiers did not "fail" to do their job "correctly", in fact they were acting upon their training and fulfilling their assignment, which unfortunately hurt civilians. they were not pro-actively choosing to kill civilians. they were not "failing" as their job. they were not defying orders. they did not commit "grievous and atrocious crimes against humanity"--they WERE doing their job, as best they knew how. this is a direct question now--to you, n-root: what would you have done? given your assignment, and being surrounded by a major war around you every day and night, separated from your entire family and life that you know--would you have followed orders and fired shots, or would you have just waited and waited for the vehicle to approach? would you have been willing to hope or assume that you weren't about to be brought down by a suicide car bomb?

big fat :werd:

[tigermomma]

Holy shit, hes back.

:D