80% of Iraqis Likely To Vote

[zartan]

This is fucking great - if there's one thing I'd love to be proven wrong about, it's that the Iraq war is a catastrophe. From the Post:


BAGHDAD, Jan. 20 -- An overwhelming majority of Iraqis continue to say they intend to vote on Jan. 30 even as insurgents press attacks aimed at rendering the elections a failure, according to a new public opinion survey.

The poll, conducted in late December and early January for the International Republican Institute, found 80 percent of respondents saying they were likely to vote, a rate that has held roughly steady for months.

The 64 percent who said they were "very likely" to vote was a dip of about 7 percentage points from a November survey, while those "somewhat likely" to vote increased 5 points.

Western specialists involved with election preparations said they were struck by the determination and resilience of ordinary Iraqis as they anticipate their country's first free election in half a century.

"Despite the efforts of the terrorists, Iraqis remain committed to casting their vote on election day," IRI President Lorne Craner said in a statement. The organization, which is funded by Congress through the National Endowment for Democracy and the U.S. Agency for International Development, commissioned the poll, which surveyed 1,900 Iraqis in all but two of the country's 18 provinces. Poor security made two in the far north, Nineveh and Dohuk, inaccessible. The margin of error was plus or minus 3 percent.

"I think people will be shocked," said an official of another international organization deeply involved in preparing Iraq's nascent political class for the ballot. The official, who insisted that neither he nor his organization could be identified because of security concerns, said most Iraqis remain intent on exercising their right to elect a government after decades of dictatorships.

"I think the real story of this election is what's gone on beneath the radar," the official said. "They may not know what they're voting for. But I think they recognize it's something called democracy."

The new survey was released on a relatively quiet day in Iraq, the start of a four-day religious holiday marking the end of the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. Streets were largely empty, and attacks appeared to be down sharply from Wednesday, when insurgents mounted more than 100 across the country, including 10 car bombings.

In the southern city of Basra, however, an explosion at the entrance to a British military base injured several people, including British soldiers, according to a statement by the British military. A group led by Abu Musab Zarqawi posted an Internet message saying the attack was "in response to the harm inflicted by British occupation forces on our brothers in prison."

Three British soldiers are accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners in a scandal that recalls the Abu Ghraib case, including photos of naked prisoners being forced to simulate sex.

Another guerrilla group, the Ansar al-Sunna Army, asserted responsibility for an attack on two cars carrying a Western security detail near Baiji, an oil town in the north, on Wednesday. A British man and an Iraqi driver were killed in the attack, and a Brazilian man is missing. The group claimed to be holding a Briton and a Swede.

Mohammed Mutar, a laborer who said he witnessed the attack, said the attackers pretended to be waiting in a long line at a gas station before attacking the two-car convoy. Lt. Col. Safa Majoun, who heads the security detail at the Baiji power plant, said two men were kidnapped, including the head of the company that runs the plant. Nazar Jabbar, a driver, said he and the company's other drivers immediately resigned.

In Anbar province, a vast and predominantly Sunni stretch of western Iraq that includes Fallujah and Ramadi, Zarqawi's group this week distributed fliers warning that anyone seen in public starting Jan. 27 would be regarded as "a military target."

[Bavarias_Finest]

Good news amidst darker times.
Especially considering the PM of Iraq said that some parts of Iraq could not vote because it was too violent ... but this is definitely pleasantly suprising ....

[NYGblue]

You guys don't understand, its too volatile, even if the election goes off relatively well that govt. is so weak it will takes YEARS of American military presence to prop and hopefully build up the government there... this is why I am so skeptical...

[Bavarias_Finest]

You guys don't understand, its too volatile, even if the election goes off relatively well that govt. is so weak it will takes YEARS of American military presence to prop and hopefully build up the government there... this is why I am so skeptical...

whatever it takes ... if its years, so be it ... as long as the job is done and we do not simply run out, amidst a mess, we need to finish what we started ....

[nietzsche]

wow. that kicks America's ass.

[elad]

20% of Iraqis Likely To Be Blown Up

:dabomb:

[zartan]

20% of Iraqis Likely To Be Blown Up

:dabomb:

lol. nice one.

[NYGblue]

whatever it takes ... if its years, so be it ... as long as the job is done and we do not simply run out, amidst a mess, we need to finish what we started ....

yeah... right...

[NYGblue]

20% of Iraqis Likely To Be Blown Up

:dabomb:

teh funniness... :icecream:

[Big McLargeHuge]

heh, should be alot of fun, and i get to see the fun first hand too, will be heading to Iraq on the 2nd or 3rd of Feb, well, ok, not the fun, but the aftermath.

i really do want to see a huge majority of Iraqi's get out and vote. another success like Afghanistan(sp) would be a great mark for the US in general

[Bavarias_Finest]

yeah... right...

What do you suggest than ???

I keep hearing criticism after criticism, but the brutal facts is that people are actually willing to stick to their guns and continue forward with an operation and progress instead of packing up and running away because the going go tough .... maybe Iraq was a bad idea, maybe the planning was poor, but we are there now and we need to stabilize and restore order to a situation we have inflammed ..... the mentality that many Americans have today of simply walking away from tough situations is seemingly disturbing .....

... Im glad that the Founding Fathers did not simply decide it was too tough to overcome the British despite insurmountable odds, that were stacked against them .... its the reason you and I are here today .....

[Big McLargeHuge]

... Im glad that the Founding Fathers did not simply decide it was too tough to overcome the British despite insurmountable odds, that were stacked against them .... its the reason you and I are here today .....


amen brother, amen

[Beastie8]

The Elections in Iraq are one of the most important things to ever happen in the middle east...in following in line with the drastic change in Afghanistan bringing Democracy to Iraq will continue our efforts to change the face of the Middle East forever and shape it into a society that can function with the rest of the world rather than continue to oppress its people...if it takes decades of our troops in the Middle East it will be worth it as long as we can continue to spread freedom.

[: ORI :]

They definately seem to be spreading the freedom on thick lately. Here at home too.

[Bavarias_Finest]

They definately seem to be spreading the freedom on thick lately. Here at home too.

Have you been stopped from saying what you want to say lately ?
Have you been stopped from going to your place of worship lately ?
Have you been stopped from being dissenting of the government openly in public ?
Have you been stopped from the possibility of having more than one child ?

The answer to all of these questions is going to be no if you live in the U.S., the U.S. continues to remain one of the freest places known to man. Regretfully in many places globally you will be stopped or question for certain practices or actions, that is not the case here ...

there is quite a difference in the government taking threats seriously and working to protect its people by installing cameras, and having added barriers and traffic patterns in our nations capitol and other cities, than simply imposing and neglecting our civil liberties .... go somewhere else like China, North Korea, or Cuba and hold up a sign that says "Not My President," "Fuck you President," and in most cases you will be shot or put in jail .... that is not the case here either ....

[Bavarias_Finest]

The Elections in Iraq are one of the most important things to ever happen in the middle east...in following in line with the drastic change in Afghanistan bringing Democracy to Iraq will continue our efforts to change the face of the Middle East forever and shape it into a society that can function with the rest of the world rather than continue to oppress its people...if it takes decades of our troops in the Middle East it will be worth it as long as we can continue to spread freedom.

BINGO!!!

[NYGblue]

BINGO!!!

Yes its GREAT that we forceably overthrow governments and subverse sovereignty for the sake of the US's objectives BINGO! :sillyme:

[Bavarias_Finest]

Yes its GREAT that we forceably overthrow governments and subverse sovereignty for the sake of the US's objectives BINGO! :sillyme:

Name one government out there that is not in it for their own interest ....???

I do not know of any government out there that thinks of other nations before their own ..... but the U.S. does care about other nations because our system of capitalism is dependent upon opening up world markets, it is true, but if that leads to the toppling of brutal dictators like Saddam Hussein, and brutal regimes like the Taliban are we really going to sit here and cry about it ..... to say either was not a threat after the history of abuse within their own nations domestically, and than their history of problems with their neighbors, its just too much to overlook ....does anyone miss the Taliban or Saddam Hussein .... I do not think there is any love loss for either of them .....

Afghanistan and Iraq are not perfect and far from being stable, but they are a hell of alot better off, and down the road their future is alot brighter without the Taliban and Saddam Hussein .... did anyone imagine the progression of society in the Middle East with Saddam Hussein and the Taliban ... was that even a thought with them in power ... the U.S. is far from a perfect government, but the fact is we do bring hope to the world, and if it pisses groups of people off that are willing to sacrifice their children and themselves by strapping bombs to themselves and driving cars filled with bombs into courtyards, than so be it, because the ignorance they possess is obvious and evident ...

[NYGblue]

way to completely sidestep the meat of my sentence... I am so sure the thousands of bystanders dead and their families are so appreciative that the US government went in and forceably brought them democracy. You know sometimes I really wonder if Americans are so clueless that they simply don't understand that real lives are at work, not some far-flaunted idealistic bullshit that involves death and agony. There are BETTER ways to do that.

This might be hard to comprehend since you don't really have any basis for understanding it, but generally speaking, people don't give a fuck about democracy if it means their lives get turned upside down for it. I know people that look back fondly on the dictatorship of the Dominican Republic. This little man named Trujillo who was supported by the US government because he claimed to be an anti-communist. Do a little research on him and all the terrible things he did. Then when I tell you that people look back fondly on his rule in the Dominican Republic dispite all that you should ask yourself why. The answer is sometimes scary.

[KDS]

What about the people who lost loved ones who are appreciative of what the US is doing, regardless of their loss. You know, sometimes I wonder how some americans can be so arrogant that they can't see the other side of the story, not some far-flaunted idealistic bulshit that involves US conspiracy and oil greed. There are BETTER ways to do challenge the role, scope, and purpose of our government than that.

This might be hard to comprehend since you don't really have any reason to listen to the other side of things, but generally speaking, the people that don't give a fuck about democracy if it means their lives get turned upside down for it, are ONLY people who have lost their resolve for it. That does not mean the process didnt work. It means that they didnt have the fortitude.

Trujillo was a shithead, Ill give you that. But on the other side of the table, I challenge all of you to not wear your trendy Che Guevara shirt until you understand what that man was.
The TRUTH is sometimes scary.

*Note- I was too lazy to dissect your post NYG, thats why I amended your post.
*Note2 - The Che Guevara T-shirt remark was rhetorical not direct. so people, please stop PMing me. :-) thanks

[Bavarias_Finest]

way to completely sidestep the meat of my sentence... I am so sure the thousands of bystanders dead and their families are so appreciative that the US government went in and forceably brought them democracy. You know sometimes I really wonder if Americans are so clueless that they simply don't understand that real lives are at work, not some far-flaunted idealistic bullshit that involves death and agony. There are BETTER ways to do that.

This might be hard to comprehend since you don't really have any basis for understanding it, but generally speaking, people don't give a fuck about democracy if it means their lives get turned upside down for it. I know people that look back fondly on the dictatorship of the Dominican Republic. This little man named Trujillo who was supported by the US government because he claimed to be an anti-communist. Do a little research on him and all the terrible things he did. Then when I tell you that people look back fondly on his rule in the Dominican Republic dispite all that you should ask yourself why. The answer is sometimes scary.

Like I said and will say it again, the U.S. is not a perfect government we have made plenty of mistakes here and there, the D.R. and Guatemala are perfect examples. Our CIA helped supplement Saddam Hussein into power in Iraq also, we have created alot of problems in the world, but at the same time it is no different than a societal microcosm, in which once close friends and allies become bitter enemies, it simply is an agonizing and ironic part of life, some of us can understand.

Roses and Doves were not going to get Saddam Hussein to give up his seat of brutal rule in Iraq. He failed to obey the U.S. and the U.N. for 13 years, turning out to be profiting from the U.N. for those 13 years, go figure. You talk and stress the collateral damage, but fail to highlight the utter violence and human degredation that Saddam and his Baath party unleashed on their own population. He was and would of continued to be a threat, with whatever weapons he had, because he proved over and over again he was a madman, invading Kuwait in 1991 over oil prices, and plotting to continue his invasion into Saudi Arabia, until the U.S./U.N. stepped in. It maybe hard for people to believe but in the long run, Iraq will be much better off, much much better off .....

...you talk about Americans not having a clue, but the fact is for the great majority the difference between a cross, a crescent moon, and a star do not turn most Americans into bitter enemies .....

Building Represenative Governments out of Brutal Dictatorships is not like microwaveable popcorn, it takes time, especially in a very polarized part of the world, where the difference between a cross, a star, and a crescent moon turns some into bitter enemies ...

[NYGblue]

Like I said and will say it again, the U.S. is not a perfect government we have made plenty of mistakes here and there, the D.R. and Guatemala are perfect examples. Our CIA helped supplement Saddam Hussein into power in Iraq also, we have created alot of problems in the world, but at the same time it is no different than a societal microcosm, in which once close friends and allies become bitter enemies, it simply is an agonizing and ironic part of life, some of us can understand.

Roses and Doves were not going to get Saddam Hussein to give up his seat of brutal rule in Iraq. He failed to obey the U.S. and the U.N. for 13 years, turning out to be profiting from the U.N. for those 13 years, go figure. You talk and stress the collateral damage, but fail to highlight the utter violence and human degredation that Saddam and his Baath party unleashed on their own population. He was and would of continued to be a threat, with whatever weapons he had, because he proved over and over again he was a madman, invading Kuwait in 1991 over oil prices, and plotting to continue his invasion into Saudi Arabia, until the U.S./U.N. stepped in. It maybe hard for people to believe but in the long run, Iraq will be much better off, much much better off .....

...you talk about Americans not having a clue, but the fact is for the great majority the difference between a cross, a crescent moon, and a star do not turn most Americans into bitter enemies .....

Building Represenative Governments out of Brutal Dictatorships is not like microwaveable popcorn, it takes time, especially in a very polarized part of the world, where the difference between a cross, a star, and a crescent moon turns some into bitter enemies ...

Dude Saddam wasn't any worse than any other dictator. You can highlight things like using chemical weapons but a lot of nasty shit has hpapened under dictators that... oh yeah the US supported. Including Saddam. You can not, will not, and won't justify the loss of life from the US invasion by Saddam's dictatorship. Two wrong's don't make a right. And AGAIN, dictatorships don't negatively affect everyone in a country.

[Agent Sunshine]

*Note2 - The Che Guevara T-shirt remark was rhetorical not direct. so people, please stop PMing me. :-) thanks

Haha! That's classic.

[Bavarias_Finest]

Dude Saddam wasn't any worse than any other dictator. You can highlight things like using chemical weapons but a lot of nasty shit has hpapened under dictators that... oh yeah the US supported. Including Saddam. You can not, will not, and won't justify the loss of life from the US invasion by Saddam's dictatorship. Two wrong's don't make a right. And AGAIN, dictatorships don't negatively affect everyone in a country.

Saddam is one of the few dictators in recent history to invade another country, for the most part other dictators have remained fairly dormant, and limited to threats and throwing rhetoric around. Saddam invaded Kuwait, planned to invade Saudi Arabia, fired Scud missiles at Israel in 1991, and fired Scuds at Kuwait recently during Gulf War II.

Everyone keeps citing North Korea, Iran, and even ridiculously Saudi Arabia sometimes as threats and even bigger worries for the U.S., but its all unprecedented.
-North Korea has been contained for quite some time, Kim Jong is crazy but we have close to 40,000 U.S. troops in the Peninsula, and the DMZ zone has seperated the North from the South for 50 years.
-Iran's government is very unsympathetic towards the U.S. but recently from within, the populous of Iran has had massive grass roots opposition to the government and its abusive policies.
-Saudi Arabia is Islam's holiest country, with the presence of Mecca and Medina. Despite almost all of the 9/11/01 terrorists coming from there, the fact is we cannot invade Islam's holiest country, because what is now in some cases being cited as a holy war would most definitely seen as such. Its illogical and irrational, but behind the scenes the U.S. has put pressure on the Saudi's and they have been vigilant and forceful with terrorists....to the degree which Riyadh the capitol has been the victim of many terrorist attacks itself, and the royal family has had various assasination attempts.

To say dictatorships do not negatively affect everyone in a country is very correct in almost every sense....

-Hitler's dictatorship only negatively effected the Jews - Blacks - Homosexuals - and the rest of Europe .....

Stalin's dictatorship only negatively effected any immigrants to Russia - dissenters - and the rest of Europe ....

-Saddam's dictatorship only negatively effected the Kurds - Christians - Jews - and anyone dissenting of his rule .....

[Bavarias_Finest]

You are also right that two wrong do not make a right ....

Saddam Hussein systematically killing anyone dissenting of his rule and various cultural and tribal groups was dispicable and horrible, a loss of life that should not be tolerated ....

The current loss of life due to suicide bombers penetrating police stations, the U.N. building, Iraqi government buildings, bombing churches, kidnapping and decapitating aide workers, and ambassadors, and resorting to the ignorant and tribalistic mentality that the U.S. is evil and unexcusable Christian Crusaders should not be tolerated either ....

P.S. Why no response to the issue regarding the lack of religious diversity/tolerance in a great deal of the Middle East ?

[Agent Sunshine]

Saddam is one of the few dictators in recent history to invade another country, for the most part other dictators have remained fairly dormant, and limited to threats and throwing rhetoric around. Saddam invaded Kuwait, planned to invade Saudi Arabia, fired Scud missiles at Israel in 1991, and fired Scuds at Kuwait recently during Gulf War II.

I recommend you look into the history of Africa over the course of the last century (colonization, tribal warfare, apartheid, over 80 coup d'etat attempts since decolonization), right up through today (where genocide is occurring and disease is wiping out huge segments of the population) in order to gain some perspective on why our handling of Saddam is so obviously motivated by more than just "he was dangerous and a bad guy."

[NYGblue]

I recommend you look into the history of Africa over the course of the last century (colonization, tribal warfare, apartheid, over 80 coup d'etat attempts since decolonization), right up through today (where genocide is occurring and disease is wiping out huge segments of the population) in order to gain some perspective on why our handling of Saddam is so obviously motivated by more than just "he was dangerous and a bad guy."

or Latin America up until the 1980's...

[NYGblue]

To say dictatorships do not negatively affect everyone in a country is very correct in almost every sense....

-Hitler's dictatorship only negatively effected the Jews - Blacks - Homosexuals - and the rest of Europe .....

Stalin's dictatorship only negatively effected any immigrants to Russia - dissenters - and the rest of Europe ....

-Saddam's dictatorship only negatively effected the Kurds - Christians - Jews - and anyone dissenting of his rule .....

First of all you blow it out of proportion to put him in the same category as those other men. Second, see the bold, thats in EVERY country with a dictator. Kurds get the shit end of the stick in EVERY country including our allies in Turkey. They are a separatist group. Saddam was a nationalist dictator, naturally they wouldn't get along.

Look you are slowly twisting this into another "oh you support saddam" nonsense thread. That isn't the point, the point is that despite your rhetorical way of writing you can NOT justify the invasion at all. You can't because there are too many variables that prove the motives were 1) misleading at best and 2) trite considering all of the other repressive regimes in the world that aren't listed on the damn axis of evil chart.

[Agent Sunshine]

North Korea has been contained for quite some time, Kim Jong is crazy but we have close to 40,000 U.S. troops in the Peninsula, and the DMZ zone has seperated the North from the South for 50 years.

The North Korean army is huge. 40,000 troops (and by the way, we've had to scale back our troop deployment in Korea to deal with Iraq) would be swamped if they decided to make a move. They also *actually* possess WMDs and delivery systems, not like the imaginary ones we invaded Iraq for.

Iran's government is very unsympathetic towards the U.S. but recently from within, the populous of Iran has had massive grass roots opposition to the government and its abusive policies.

The US government is very unsympathetic towards Iraq but recently from within, the populous of the US has had massive grass roots opposition to the government and its abusive policies.

Unfortunately, those grassroots efforts don't seem to have stopped the US from invading and decimating Iraq. I'm sure Iran's dissidents will be much more effective though.

Saudi Arabia is Islam's holiest country, with the presence of Mecca and Medina. Despite almost all of the 9/11/01 terrorists coming from there, the fact is we cannot invade Islam's holiest country, because what is now in some cases being cited as a holy war would most definitely seen as such. Its illogical and irrational, but behind the scenes the U.S. has put pressure on the Saudi's and they have been vigilant and forceful with terrorists....to the degree which Riyadh the capitol has been the victim of many terrorist attacks itself, and the royal family has had various assasination attempts.

Wow, a totalitarian regime has faced terrorism? That must make them okay.

No one I know is advocating invading Saudi Arabia, simply pointing out the hypocracy of glad-handling one totalitarian regime while liberating another right next door. I've heard a lot of big talk about spreading democracy, but I haven't seen much action. Unless you think that we're going to invade every non-democratic country one by one, installing democracy sequentially. I'm sure that would work wonderfully.

[Beastie8]

way to completely sidestep the meat of my sentence... I am so sure the thousands of bystanders dead and their families are so appreciative that the US government went in and forceably brought them democracy. You know sometimes I really wonder if Americans are so clueless that they simply don't understand that real lives are at work, not some far-flaunted idealistic bullshit that involves death and agony. There are BETTER ways to do that.

This might be hard to comprehend since you don't really have any basis for understanding it, but generally speaking, people don't give a fuck about democracy if it means their lives get turned upside down for it. I know people that look back fondly on the dictatorship of the Dominican Republic. This little man named Trujillo who was supported by the US government because he claimed to be an anti-communist. Do a little research on him and all the terrible things he did. Then when I tell you that people look back fondly on his rule in the Dominican Republic dispite all that you should ask yourself why. The answer is sometimes scary.


hmm I wonder if you were able to witness the reactions of the millions of Iraqi voters that just took place in the most important thing in their lives...an election where the "people" got to choose who they wanted to represent themselves for the first time in over 50 years! Yea it sure seemed like they really didn't want Democracy...all of the happy people...the Iraqis that had inked fingers to stop voter fraud held them up high to show they voted even though that made them a target of the insurgency. Hmmm i guess you dont live on the same planet as the rest of us. But a Free Democratic Iraq is going to go down in History of one of the biggest changes that the USA had an influence on in the World. All of you Bush haters 20 yrs down the line will be reading history books that will provide all the proof you need that we are witnessing something that was pretty much unimaginable. Sorry anyone who says Freedom is wrong needs to take a good look at themselves and figure why they are on this planet...b/c you are the people that we are going to crush with Democracy...Its time to share our American wealth with as many countries in this world that want it. Not Dollar wealth but the Wealth of Peace and Freedom that so many people dont have the opportunity to see. Its time for Americans to help themselves in our problems within our country and allow the government to start helping other countries have the ability to choose their own way. :patriot:

[Beastie8]

I recommend you look into the history of Africa over the course of the last century (colonization, tribal warfare, apartheid, over 80 coup d'etat attempts since decolonization), right up through today (where genocide is occurring and disease is wiping out huge segments of the population) in order to gain some perspective on why our handling of Saddam is so obviously motivated by more than just "he was dangerous and a bad guy."

Many of the events in Africa are the saddest in the World but the reason why the middle east is a point of most attention is due to the absoulte fact that the growing power to be able to spread their hatred outside of their own walls to other countries including the USA was a very real probability. The USA can not solve every problem in the world we are on a mission to help as many as we can but we MUST go after the problems that most directly affect the entire world. The changes that WILL happen in the mideast are going to be examples that we will be able to point at when trying to help others...we can say "look Democracy works their"..in the part of the world that has had major differences since the beginning of time...since messopotamia(sp) sorry to lazy to look it up; but anyway the mideast has been fighting forever...if the USA can make a dent in that and start to change opinions so that the children over there will witness different opportunities then it will grow and grow and soon you will see other countries turning to a Democracy if they want to continue to be a functional country in the upcoming years.

[NYGblue]

hmm I wonder if you were able to witness the reactions of the millions of Iraqi voters that just took place in the most important thing in their lives...an election where the "people" got to choose who they wanted to represent themselves for the first time in over 50 years! Yea it sure seemed like they really didn't want Democracy...all of the happy people...the Iraqis that had inked fingers to stop voter fraud held them up high to show they voted even though that made them a target of the insurgency. Hmmm i guess you dont live on the same planet as the rest of us. But a Free Democratic Iraq is going to go down in History of one of the biggest changes that the USA had an influence on in the World. All of you Bush haters 20 yrs down the line will be reading history books that will provide all the proof you need that we are witnessing something that was pretty much unimaginable. Sorry anyone who says Freedom is wrong needs to take a good look at themselves and figure why they are on this planet...b/c you are the people that we are going to crush with Democracy...Its time to share our American wealth with as many countries in this world that want it. Not Dollar wealth but the Wealth of Peace and Freedom that so many people dont have the opportunity to see. Its time for Americans to help themselves in our problems within our country and allow the government to start helping other countries have the ability to choose their own way. :patriot:

Nice try, but you completely missed the point.

[Bioteknik]

The North Korean army is huge. 40,000 troops (and by the way, we've had to scale back our troop deployment in Korea to deal with Iraq) would be swamped if they decided to make a move. They also *actually* possess WMDs and delivery systems, not like the imaginary ones we invaded Iraq for.



delivery systems? then you talk about imaginary weapons?

[BizarroCub]

delivery systems? then you talk about imaginary weapons?

Yeah, in North Korea...they have real weapons and delivery systems.

The weapons in Iraq were imaginary.

[Bioteknik]

Yeah, in North Korea...they have real weapons and delivery systems.

The weapons in Iraq were imaginary.

actually some people *THINK* they have delivery systems. But you seem to think that a ballistic missile is such a simple thing to design that it can cross the pacific without being tested.

Hey, I can design a car that travels 300 mph, but I don't need to prove it on a test track. :wink:

[BizarroCub]

actually some people *THINK* they have delivery systems. But you seem to think that a ballistic missile is such a simple thing to design that it can cross the pacific without being tested.

Hey, I can design a car that travels 300 mph, but I don't need to prove it on a test track. :wink:

True true...however, I don't THINK it's a simple thing. I know it's not a simple thing. I'm simply basing that opinion about stuff I've been reading.

However, you can't deny that there is more evidence of them actually having things happening as opposed to Iraq, which I think was Agent's point.

[elad]

um, they have delivery systems.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/missile/

[Bioteknik]

not capable of crossing the pacific, which I said in one of my responses. but yes, they can inflict some major damage to the area.

[elad]

what, no love for the poor eskimos ? :glcaroline:

[Bioteknik]

North Korea to Alaska is under 2500 KM? but I'm splitting hairs here..



sorry for hijacking :bolt:

[elad]

i think youre shortchanging the range a lil bit.... anyhoo...

um yea, what was this thread about?

happy free iraquis yay!!!

[Bioteknik]

here's to hoping the sunni's don't too pissed off about the results.

[elad]

i dont think anyone over there is short on "Reasons to be pissed off"

look at this "genius" with a death-wish....

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/39526.htm

[nietzsche]

Yeah, in North Korea...they have real weapons and delivery systems.

The weapons in Iraq were imaginary.

weren't you the one saying that an ABM shield is a dumb idea?

[BizarroCub]

weren't you the one saying that an ABM shield is a dumb idea?

Yep...and I still stand by my original argument.

Also, weren't you one of the folks saying conventional warfare is becoming a thing of the past and with changing threats new strategies need to be approached?

Instead of something they've been tyring to get right and haven't for 2 decades?

[Light Touch]

Election was a good thing. Yay.

[BizarroCub]

Election was a good thing. Yay.

People voting - Good thing
Voting in an election where you don't even necessarilly know who you're voting for - Bad thing

[Bioteknik]

how many americans REALLY know the issues supported by the presidential candidates?

[BizarroCub]

how many americans REALLY know the issues supported by the presidential candidates?

I can assure most of em know more about Bush than the fact that he's running on the "Christian Ticket".

And ususally if they don't it stems from apathy and not a lack of opportunity to get the information.

Yeah, someone might not have known Bush and Kerry's platform's, but their platforms, names, faces, and info are atleast published so you CAN get the information.

And even if they don't know the specifics they atleast know they're voting for a president and not say, a city councilman.

[Bioteknik]

just as a disclaimer, I responded to this before reading the comments in Brian's thread.