Marriage under God??

[RoboSka]

:klondike:
Lately my girlfriend and I have been discussing the subject of marriage. Her spiritual beliefs of nearly nothing make her opposed to the situation of being married under some supreme being she doesn't believe in. I'm all for it in the sense of a lifetime commitment that exists between two people and noone else no matter how omnipotent they may be. Does an official state marriage have to involve the words " under god"? or can the couple write their own vows??:cracksmoker:

[KittyBleu]

Um...you can go get a certificate from a judge and say your own vows. That's what we're going to do....no god for me please! :D

[LadyJ]

That is why I cannot marry, and will not date, an atheist. To answer your question though, getting a marriage license from the state is a legal union and has nothing to do with religious marriage. So, yes. You can have a legal union without saying "God."

[Julierose]

I couldnt imagine having 'under god' or anything like that in my marriage vows... :shrug:

[KittyBleu]

I know, right? I want to declare love and loyalty under love... :D Not God...

[RoboSka]

whew...thoughtI was gonna have to compromise beliefs in order to get cheaper taxes...I mean...to be a non bitter husband

[kidvid]

LadyJ, why wouldn't you marry an atheist? Because they don't believe in god? What affect would that have on the marriage?

[retail]

Originally posted by LadyJ
That is why I cannot marry, and will not date, an atheist.

:werd:

[ravetildawn]

god is dead.

[kidvid]

My question is this though -- what positive effect on a marriage is produced when both people believe that they are married "married under some supreme being?" Conversely, what negative affect on a marriage is produced when one or both people do not think that they are "married under some supreme being?"

Also, how does this play out with the divorce rate? Are most of the people getting divorced atheists and agnostics?

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by LadyJ
That is why I cannot marry, and will not date, an atheist. To answer your question though, getting a marriage license from the state is a legal union and has nothing to do with religious marriage. So, yes. You can have a legal union without saying "God."


being agnostic i can say that although i have no binding love for or desire for god's blessing i would have no problem getting married by the church of the choosing of my wife to be. i mean if you love her wouldn't you want her to be happy?

[retail]

it will become a problem in the future... (what to teach your kids, etc. etc.)

[Julierose]

Okay so ya'll wouldnt date atheists... how about people of different religions? If so, are you picky about WHAT the different religion is? Like, if you are protistant, would you date someone who is jewish? lutheran? wiccan? I could go on and on...

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by kidvid
My question is this though -- what positive effect on a marriage is produced when both people believe that they are married "married under some supreme being?" Conversely, what negative affect on a marriage is produced when one or both people do not think that they are "married under some supreme being?"

Also, how does this play out with the divorce rate? Are most of the people getting divorced atheists and agnostics?


no because i see marriage as a binding to a person for a life long commitment...being married in a ceremony to let each other know you are serious about the relationship.

it isnt supposed to be something you stay in oput of fear of reprisal from a supreme being.

[retail]

probably not... a friend of mine is in agony over the fact that his girlfriend's parents will not even acknowledge his existance (they are jewish, he is christian)

[kidvid]

If two married people have different beliefs, is it so bad to teach the kids a little bit about *both* belief systems and let them decide when they are in their teens, what they want to do? Does anyone ever consider that when you teach a child under 12 about religion, it's more like brainwashing than knowledge? They don't know any better. Case in point: David Koresh and his twisted version of Christianity.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by Julierose
Okay so ya'll wouldnt date atheists... how about people of different religions? If so, are you picky about WHAT the different religion is? Like, if you are protistant, would you date someone who is jewish? lutheran? wiccan?

i would have serious problems dating an aetheist even if i didnt know they were. the level of ability it would require to close your mind off from the possibility that there may be a god, is a character traight i wouldnt want in my marraige.


I could go on and on...


please say it isnt so :doh:

[Julierose]

okay but there are so many different facets of christianity. (Assuming you are christian) Would you date someone who is christian but not lutheran, for example?

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by retail
probably not... a friend of mine is in agony over the fact that his girlfriend's parents will not even acknowledge his existance (they are jewish, he is christian)

pete "quotes" are helpful communication tools :buzzboy:

[retail]

Originally posted by buzzboy


i would have serious problems dating an aetheist even if i didnt know they were. the level of ability it would require to close your mind off from the possibility that there may be a god, is a character traight i wouldnt want in my marraige.

exactly.

as far as different facets of christianity, no problem there... :shrug:

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by Julierose
okay but there are so many different facets of christianity. (Assuming you are christian) Would you date someone who is christian but not lutheran, for example?

i would date anyone of any belief...but these so called satan worshorpers...they make me laugh.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by retail


exactly.

as far as different facets of christianity, no problem there... :shrug:

:ez:

[bboyneko]

Even if you beleive in god, you are an 'athiest' to other gods. Let's say you beleive in yahweh, the god of the judeo-crhistian bible. Then you probably dont beleive in zues, odib, loki, Mars, etc as real gods but as sotries made up by man. If you beleive those gods are not real and are 'athiest' to them, who are you to judge someone for not beliving in your god?

[Julierose]

Originally posted by buzzboy


i would have serious problems dating an aetheist even if i didnt know they were. the level of ability it would require to close your mind off from the possibility that there may be a god, is a character traight i wouldnt want in my marraige.



not the question. Wiccans believe there is a god (many actually) All religions are based on belief in god. so you wouldnt date an atheist but what about someone of another religion?

[Julierose]

nevermind question answered.

[bboyneko]

That's really arrogant to say "I wouldn't date someone who dosen't hold the same unprovable beleif I do"

That's like me saying :

'I refuse to date anyone who does not beleive in Invisible Pink Magical Unicorns. That their mind cannot even acknoledge the possibility of the existance of invisible pink magical unicorns is a turn-off to me'

[Julierose]

I believe in invisible pink magical unicorns!!!! Wanna hang out sometime?


:lameflirt:

[retail]

Originally posted by bboyneko
Even if you beleive in god, you are an 'athiest' to other gods. Let's say you beleive in yahweh, the god of the judeo-crhistian bible. Then you probably dont beleive in zues, odib, loki, Mars, etc as real gods but as sotries made up by man. If you beleive those gods are not real and are 'athiest' to them, who are you to judge someone for not beliving in your god?

bullshit.

i'm not judging. i'm not saying i don't believe in other gods. i was raised a certain way, and have developed my own beliefs. i have friends among a wide range of religions and beliefs, and we all get along fine

as far as my decision not to marry, that's one i have made for myself for a variety of reasons... mostly from observations of how it has negatively affected friends and family...

[bboyneko]

Ok, because we could never raise children sucessfully if we both didn't beleive in invisible pink magical unicorns. Our children would have no moral guidance since all morals come from Invisible Pink Magical Unicorns.

[kidvid]

What if you were married to Christian and one day they woke up and said "ya know, I think god is a concept invented by people to make themselves feel better about death. I bet aliens don't believe in Jesus, why should I? However, hun, I still love you and the kids just like I did before."

[Julierose]

Okay here's another good question. What if they WERE of the same religion but they hadn't been to church since their aunt got married when they were in third grade? Would you date them?

[retail]

you can play the "what if" game until you are blue in the face...

[Julierose]

I know, it's just a question, answer it or dont answer it...:shrug:

I'm just trying to see what the limits are.

[Julierose]

here we go how about this one. Do you go to church (or temple or whatever) on a regular basis? (at least once a month)

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by Julierose


not the question. Wiccans believe there is a god (many actually) All religions are based on belief in god. so you wouldnt date an atheist but what about someone of another religion? well im not sure that i answered the wrong question ...i answer from an agnostic perspective. speaking about atheists in general (this is in responce to bboy as well) i speak of atheist in the sence of that there is "NO HIGHER BEING" belief cause me personally as i believe that there is a higher being of somesort but have not been proven or even given very compelling evidence or feeling that one of the available optiions is what is in fact true... and i dont wanna make the potention dishonor to the true beiing of higherness by worshiping any false tokens. i was raised catholic and am certain that is not my religion.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by Julierose
Okay here's another good question. What if they WERE of the same religion but they hadn't been to church since their aunt got married when they were in third grade? Would you date them?

i would date you.... who cares about pete? :neener:

[retail]

Originally posted by buzzboy


i would date you.... who cares about pete? :neener:

:afterbuzz:

Originally posted by Julierose
here we go how about this one. Do you go to church (or temple or whatever) on a regular basis? (at least once a month)

nope...

[bboyneko]

as an athiest, I would date a religious person, as I beleive religion is very personal. I probably wouldn't date a hard-core evangelical fundamentalist tho, just because their personality type and mine would clash so much.

[Julierose]

Originally posted by buzzboy


i would date you.... who cares about pete? :neener:

Cool!! who woulda thought I would be gettin all the dates in the religion thread! Especially with my new found belief in Invisible Pink Magical Unicorns!

[kidvid]

Ya know..there's not much difference between an atheist and an agnostic. If you DEFINITELY think there is a higher power, you're not an agnostic. Don't believe me? Here is the definition of agnostic from the dictionary:

A)
One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
B)
One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
C)
One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

As you can see, neither of those definitions fit someone who definitely thinks that god exists, but just isn't sure what religion has it right and what religion has it wrong (ie., the false tokens remark).

Agnostic means - I SERIOUSLY DOUBT god exists, but I really can't be sure.
Atheist means - There's no way god could exist, just like Santa Claus doesn't exist.

Not much difference here. Most atheists are in fact, agnostics -- they will admit to you know there's no way to be 100% sure about god or the easter bunny.

[retail]

thank you mr. webster

[Muramasa]

Originally posted by kidvid
A) One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.



Agnostic means - I SERIOUSLY DOUBT god exists, but I really can't be sure.


You're contradicting yourself there, chum. There's an entire range of doubt, as well as simply not wanting to commit to something you aren't absolutely sure of. One could be almost sure that there is a god, but unwilling to commit to a religion and still fall under the 'Agnostic' catagory.
:shrug::cheers:

[kidvid]

How is that? If you look at the three dictionary entries for agnostic, as a whole, that doesn't leave much room for a true believer. When you say it's impossible to know if god exists, that's not at all equal to saying "almost sure."
"Impossible to know" can be translated into saying - 50% chance for, 50% chance against.

[punkasschikadee]

I dont have a defined religion, I believe in God. and when i say i believe in God i believe in a superior being humans may be doubtful of because they cannot conciously imagine it or what power it has, etc etc.

yea id probably date an atheist but unless we could completely respect eachothers life choices and come together being/feeling as close and together as i would with someone having the same belief system of me. its kind of about similarity and overall chemistry. saying things like "pfft God was made up by humans because their weak and need to feel better about death" (absolutely NOT saying that all atheists are like that, just working with the stereotype) yeah its a real turn-off and therefore not really marraige material

[Muramasa]

You're redefining words in the same post where you put the actual definition, it just seems wrong to me. I think the definition speaks for itself and is quite clear. When you put that down and follow it with "Agnostic means-", it's not only insulting to others, but you're changing the definition. Further more, "Impossible to know" doesn't necessarily translate to any percentage, it simply indicates a great deal of uncertainty.

Perhaps it's just me, I'm feeling a tad under the weather today.:shrug:

[kidvid]

Well, we agree then. "Impossible to know" under any reasonable interpreation does not mean "almost sure."

[Muramasa]

:afterbuzz:
I'm just not up to this today.

[iminxtc]

im not an atheist...but i dont exactly like the wholel under god issue

[punkasschikadee]

:traviswork:

[Muramasa]

:yawn::FUBAR:

[kidvid]

I do believe the devil is real, however.
He lives on this earth.
His name is Larry Flynt.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by kidvid
Ya know..there's not much difference between an atheist and an agnostic. If you DEFINITELY think there is a higher power, you're not an agnostic. Don't believe me? Here is the definition of agnostic from the dictionary:



i dont care about diction ary definitions...and there is a huge difference, it is uneduacted atheists that dont know the difference. Atheism is the religion of non religion, agnostic is the beliefe of any with good enough reason.

[kidvid]

I think most people will choose Websters as the reliable authoritative source, and not you. Sorry buster. Just because you want to call yourself an agnostic doesn't mean you are one.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by kidvid
I do believe the devil is real, however.
He lives on this earth.
His name is Larry Flynt.


larry flint is like that saint arrowsmith... look it up man.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by buzzboy



larry flint is like that saint arrowsmith... look it up man.


proof the catholics are fucked (http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sainte26.htm)

Died
martyred 28 August 1628 by hanging, drawing and quartering at Lancaster, England; his hand is preserved as a relic at Saint Oswald's Church, Ashton-in-Makerfield, England

[kidvid]

Larry flint is the guy in the wheelchair who publishes Hustler Magazine, heh heh.

[GlowGrrl]

I don’t think it is arrogant to say that you wouldn’t date someone of a different or non-religion. If there is anything that is being used to make important value judgments- religion, God, family values, maybe even politics… then I think you are starting a relationship (nevermind a marriage) on the wrong foot if there is already a disparity there.

For myself, I think it would be unfair to a guy who didn’t share my beliefs because we could never see eye to eye on key decisions. It’s never gone well for me anyway, and that’s why I think so many religions encourage you to follow those bounds because it establishes boundaries that are important to both of you.

[iminxtc]

Originally posted by punkasschikadee
:traviswork:

bitch if u touch me with that stick again i will fuckin cut chu

[El Magnifico]

Originally posted by kidvid
LadyJ, why wouldn't you marry an atheist? Because they don't believe in god? What affect would that have on the marriage?

Because Atheist can't yell out "Oh God!" during sex. Not good for a marriage, IMHO.

[LadyJ]

Originally posted by kidvid
LadyJ, why wouldn't you marry an atheist? Because they don't believe in god? What affect would that have on the marriage?
I don't believe that atheists will go to heaven. I don't want to spend this life with someone that I can't be with in the next.

[DCDave]

Our (The United States) problem is that we have become a bunch of lawsuit weenies. The conservative right wants to make sure that God and the bible dictate everyones moral and personal lives. The Liberal Left wants to make sure that everyone just lives how they want to, with complete separation of Church and State. It is funny that we print in God We Trust on our money, but we are petrified to say a prayer. I myself am not religious, however, I do study the various religions to see what all the fuss is about. I personally believe that a person should worship how they please. I do not think that religion and politics belong together, nor should our laws be influenced by religion insofar that they discriminate on certain citizens. This is America. We are all supposed to have the right to pursue Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Unless we all voice our opinions that we need equality for everyone, we shall never truly be free. Respect and love each other, respect others beliefs and opinions, and see how nice life truly can be.......Just my 3 1/2 cents.

[punkasschikadee]

Originally posted by iminxtc


bitch if u touch me with that stick again i will fuckin cut chu

was for charly

:tweak:

[bboyneko]

saying things like "pfft God was made up by humans because their weak and need to feel better about death" (absolutely NOT saying that all atheists are like that, just working with the stereotype) yeah its a real turn-off and therefore not really marraige material

THat's why I could never date someone who dosen't beleive in Keebler elves, cus theyd be like 'pfft keebler elves were made up by advertising execs to sell E.L.F. cookies" and thats a big turn-off..im not tyring to stereotype but that's how it is. No Keebler elves, no marriage :)

The cha;llenge of proof lays on the one making the outrageous claim. If I tell you "I can shoot laser beams out my eyes" youd be like 'uuhh..ok ill beleive it when i see it' then are you close-minded, arrogant and whatnot because you demand proof of a outrageous claim? no. That's being sensible.

God to me is an outrageous claim. No proof, then I don't beleive.

[tigermomma]

Though I can understand how your argument holds water logically, and even respect you for being able to think so rationally, I think there are some things that just shouldnt be understood. Call it rationalization, justification, affirmations of our actions...still. I think its critical for us to try to keep a child like wonder of the things around us.

You can be knowledgeable and scientific about alot of things...tear them apart if need be, but cynicism comes from not having hte wonder as well.

:shrug:
I dont necessarily believe in God as Christians do even though I was raised Catholic, but I see too much beauty and order in the world and in people to not believe that there is a higher power.

[/breaking board code of no religious discussions]

[bboyneko]

The concept of God as most westerners see it is the one described in the Judeo-christian holy books. I may be an athiest, but I beleive in existance after physical death. It's a beleif without proof, call it a hope. I refuse to live my life under the guidelines of any holy book especially when they are all suspect. YOu have to take the author's word for it that it is gods words.

If worst case scenario happens, and theres no god and no existance after death..we wont know..cus just like you wern't aware of anything before you were born..before you were born you didn't exist..maybe dying is a permenant ceasing to exist. Since your not aware of it, its no big deal.

I guess non-existance terrifies us, even though at one point we did not exist

[LadyJ]

My definition of an atheist is someone who does not believe in a higher power and does not believe in an afterlife. Although I might identify with Christianity, I don't believe that any of the major religions are wrong but rather different ways of looking at the same thing. It's not even important that you identify with any particular religion. There is religion and there is spirituality and faith. I believe that spirituality and faith are most important. Religion is just a way to get there.

[tigermomma]

You're not really saying that you dont believe in God (in any sense of "higher power") you are saying you dont agree with religion. I dont agree with the mandates the church places on its different dioceses. I think its a measure of control that has left the vesitges of its hold in modern society.

I'm not speaking of religion however, I am talking about that "higher power". The word "God" is just that...a word. Our mind cant grasp what God means, only that it is the word that we have chosen to peg on that power. It shouldnt matter what connotation it holds nor what constrictions we place on it from our western or easter societal standards.

[bboyneko]

athiests can beleive in existing after death, thats a beleif in some sort of soul, souls can be seperate from god. I beleive life came about by accident, and our self-awareness is a result of evolution. I don't beleive any pre-existing life form designed and created life on earth, therefore I am an athiest.

[tigermomma]

Where do you believe your soul goes out of curiosity?

And what if Genesis' seven days were actually millions of years each but when it was written, that time in that sort of enormity was not deemed possible or it was only made 7 days because of the Roman calender. I dont know my history very well, nor my religion, yet I think when you take religions out of the equation, I dont see how you can deny that there is an inherent beauty and order (even if its with the mutations of evolution and Darwinism) in the world and its history.

I dont believe in a conscious force guiding the world, but I woud like to think that there is a rhythm to it all.

[bboyneko]

i dont see evidence of design, but rather gradual evolution. For instance, the spinal columns of human beings is that of a quadraped. A more effective spinal design for a bipedal animal would be a more centered spine. I see a gradual evolution of both little toe and vestigual organs like the apendex. Males having nipples, since we all start out as female. Evolution would dictate you start simple to xomplex, so all life began as one sex, asexually reproducing. So the original sex is female. Males are a mutant version, meant only to increase genetic variety in the reproductive process.

I see beauty yes, but no design. THe soul may go to a different plane of existance, im not sure. Again its more of a hope, a kinda wouldn't it be neat if type of thought. Deep down though, the more realistic assesment is that we differ vry little from other primates and mammals in general and death is very likely a simple ceasing of existance.

[pojimoko]

Originally posted by iminxtc


bitch if u touch me with that stick again i will fuckin cut chu

i believe.... that that is some funny shit :haha: :haha: :haha:
and i also believe that ppl believe in stuff.

doode has got the perfect excuse NOT to get married. that's what i ain't understanding. and it ain't even like he has to make up some BULLSHIT to get out of getting married either. :shrug: if getting married for tax purposes, get the phoney overseas marriage certificate in case ur audited.

[RoboSka]

Originally posted by buzzboy



being agnostic i can say that although i have no binding love for or desire for god's blessing i would have no problem getting married by the church of the choosing of my wife to be. i mean if you love her wouldn't you want her to be happy?

hmm...always risky if you don't respect what she wants later on...could become a factor down the road...

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by LadyJ

I don't believe that atheists will go to heaven. I don't want to spend this life with someone that I can't be with in the next.


there is always purgatory...who's to say that the two of you wouldnt be happy together their for ever.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by DCDave
Our (The United States) problem is that we have become a bunch of lawsuit weenies. The conservative right wants to make sure that God and the bible dictate everyones moral and personal lives. The Liberal Left wants to make sure that everyone just lives how they want to, with complete separation of Church and State. It is funny that we print in God We Trust on our money, but we are petrified to say a prayer. I myself am not religious, however, I do study the various religions to see what all the fuss is about. I personally believe that a person should worship how they please. I do not think that religion and politics belong together, nor should our laws be influenced by religion insofar that they discriminate on certain citizens. This is America. We are all supposed to have the right to pursue Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Unless we all voice our opinions that we need equality for everyone, we shall never truly be free. Respect and love each other, respect others beliefs and opinions, and see how nice life truly can be.......Just my 3 1/2 cents.


i was actually told recently that you wont qualify for certain security clearances based on your sexual preference... based on the fact that in many states sodmy is considered a crime, and by definition the gays are regularly breaking state laws. in virginia everything but missionary style is considered sodomy, so by deffinition barely a few if any of the clearances in this are must be falacious and not deserved!

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by bboyneko


....
God to me is an outrageous claim. No proof, then I don't beleive.


i tend to shy from most things that people are overly excited about& fanaticall about... evangelists and the like use persuation of heaven and good lives to support and fund these assholes like that one guy on the 700 club and the pope.

and im not even saying that i dont believe...just that it may not be the answer. but im willing to except it if it is. the thing that compells me is scientific proof of evolution exsits..and all there is to prove catholosim is werds written in a book and sometimes illustrated with poor drawings of david and goliath.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by bboyneko
The concept of God as most westerners see it is the one described in the Judeo-christian holy books. I may be an athiest, but I beleive in existance after physical death. It's a beleif without proof, call it a hope. I refuse to live my life under the guidelines of any holy book especially when they are all suspect. YOu have to take the author's word for it that it is gods words.

If worst case scenario happens, and theres no god and no existance after death..we wont know..cus just like you wern't aware of anything before you were born..before you were born you didn't exist..maybe dying is a permenant ceasing to exist. Since your not aware of it, its no big deal.

I guess non-existance terrifies us, even though at one point we did not exist


although we didnt exsist in the form we do know doesnt mean we were nonexsitant... i mean a tall seqioa tree grows from a single seed in a cone that isnt a tree but a product of factor in one...the seed and the cone exsist but as a not entirely different for than the tree... i am compelled by some sort of hindu religions (i believe it is hindu anyway) as in natural energy that is thrown this way and that in everything like a constant ebb and flow system... when good stops pushing evil pushes back like a huge chaotic transfer of powers and energies constantly occuring even on small nearly non-exsitent levels.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by LadyJ
My definition of an atheist is someone who does not believe in a higher power and does not believe in an afterlife. Although I might identify with Christianity, I don't believe that any of the major religions are wrong but rather different ways of looking at the same thing. It's not even important that you identify with any particular religion. There is religion and there is spirituality and faith. I believe that spirituality and faith are most important. Religion is just a way to get there. sometimes i associate canoes with life in my ebb and flow system...basically im just riding along in my canoe with no reall worries or fears, i ve a destination and that is down stream, i have faith in my tools ( canoe, lifevest) and no that i may come across troubles but for the most part the ride will be a successful journey from point a to some other point not neccassarily all that far from A, but constant and sure.

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by tigermomma
You're not really saying that you dont believe in God (in any sense of "higher power") you are saying you dont agree with religion. I dont agree with the mandates the church places on its different dioceses. I think its a measure of control that has left the vesitges of its hold in modern society.

I'm not speaking of religion however, I am talking about that "higher power". The word "God" is just that...a word. Our mind cant grasp what God means, only that it is the word that we have chosen to peg on that power. It shouldnt matter what connotation it holds nor what constrictions we place on it from our western or easter societal standards.

haha so by that definition nothing is truely in finate cause it has to have some basis of measuremtn to deside it is immeasurable., cause even inconclusions draw some sort of conclusion.. :shrug:

[buzzboy]

Originally posted by bboyneko
athiests can beleive in existing after death, thats a beleif in some sort of soul, souls can be seperate from god. I beleive life came about by accident, and our self-awareness is a result of evolution. I don't beleive any pre-existing life form designed and created life on earth, therefore I am an athiest.

winto-green breathsavers make a spark in the dark...i know this is true i tried it several times, i cant tell how it werks or why but i can assure you that seeing that spark is not nearly as surprising as the fact that santa and the easter bunny dont exsist, it's really sad when society has to create icons or tokens to keep order on any level (such as santa) when the real working structures are consitenly in good morally bound people.

any religion that keeps you in line for fear of somesort of vengeful rath cant be right.... cause as i discovered when i was lil and trashed a very large wodden box style tvs that seemed to be my fathers best friend after his beer mug, that after he beat my ass; he still loved me, not sure if he ever forgave me but the fact remains i wasnt affraid of him. as a yougin many religions teach to fear the rath and in that fear you will find respect. i think that is BfuckinS!

[buzzboy]

eye for an eye was the flaw jesus couldnt see... i mean you kill my cow, im killin yours and burning your house down :evilred: you may or may not see the river styx or even burn in fire and brimsote...but youll get what you deserve, "and if you try sometimes you just might fid you get what you need. " sometimes a lil more sometimes a lil less but if your aligned right with yourself and the world...you ll share when you are wealthy and hopefully someone will share when you are not.

[buzzboy]

the ones to worry about are those who live well when you are wealthy andthen tell you to fuck off when you are not.

[GOTHIKA]

I agree with declaring love and loyalty under "love" not god.

[bboyneko]

One Nation, Under Pink Invisible Unicorns....