White Labels Rock If You Adjust Them Right

[zartan]

Alright so I finally replaced my 2 year old trackmaster IIs with Shure White Labels. They suck for EDM IMO. The Trackmasters have astonishingly better bass response (I mean, there is no comparison - its thump vs. thin). The Shures track marginally better for scratching and stability, but I am very pissed about the way these f***ing White Labels sound. Maybe if you're mixing classical music they'd be the dopest things out there, but for EDM I'm totally underwhelmed.

Anyone want to buy a barely-used pair?

Annoyed,
E

[Milkman John]

shoulda gone with the m447

nothing beats the m447

sucks they suck though, was actually thinking about getting a pair...

[zartan]

i would highly recommend against it. now that i've used these i have a new appreciation for trackmaster IIs. those things were workhorses for over 2 years and the bass is great. i'd recommend em (even if they are a bit cheesy)... i'd go back in a second if i hadn't just blown $200 on these POS shures.

[Milkman John]

i used to use the trackmaster II's...i still prefer the m447's...i do alot of cutting and have begun doing a shitload of scratching, etc. and they hold the groove like nothing i have seen....

and they are loud :)

trackmasters are nice for your average dj style though...damn nice bass response...

[Unfeign]

hmm...i wonder if it's something else with your Shure's. i bought a pair about 10 months ago, and they've worked great for me. i havent noticed any loss of sound vs. the stanton's that i've used before. but hey, we all have to go with what we like.

[zartan]

i don't know - i swapped them right out of the same system with the trackmasters and the difference is startling. and i bought the 2 cartridges about 2 months apart (was broke) so its not like a bad lot or something.

oh well, $200 down the drain. at least they track a bit better.

[zartan]

it may be chris that your stantons didn't have bass response like trackmasters either - maybe this thread should have been titled "trackmaster IIs have kickin' bass" instead of "shures suck"... i'm thinking that may be the case.

[uberclkgtr]

i find that the el-cheapo stanton 505s are awesome. and cheap. they could track slightly better, but i'm pretty pleased with them. do any of the other stantons track better and sound as good?

[the sex molesters]

i have some shures.... i think they're the m44g or some shit.... they were cheap, and they had a carrying case, and i couldn't afford the trackmasters....

however i will add that i've been really impressed with the ortophones.... it seems that they outlast every other needle, and the almost never skip.... sound quality's great too....

too bad they're so fucking expensive......

[rajdeep]

Does anyone have an opinion on whether replacing just the needle on a cartridge with one that was not intended for it affect the performance? e.g. replacing a needle on a M447 with some other type other than a M447 needle.

[zartan]

i think what i'm noticing is that theres a difference between sound qualty i.e. crispness and sound quality i.e. EDM sound - thump. the shures are definitely better for listening to classical - beethoven is transcendent, well-imaged and crystal clear. but when i bust out the booming shit they fall flat on they faces like they've had one LIIT too many.

[Paul Dailey]

44-7s are for scratching. They dont even come CLOSE to Ortofon Nightclubs or Shure White Labels in terms of sound quality.

Sorry you are having problem with your White Labels...they are really good needles and maybe you just have to get used to the sound. Trackmasters are awful...but maybe you got used to their over-pronounced bass.

I would suggest getting some contact cleaner, cleaning all your wires, cables and the connection between your white labels and your tonearm. Get some Groove Glide or other record cleaning solution and clean some of your records and then try out the White Labels.

[rajdeep]

Yea, Eric try them out on someone else's tables or at a Guitar Center. Maybe you got a bad piece... :shrug:

[zartan]

i think i need some processing like an aphex exciter or something to get the thump back. because there is no bass 'pulse' on my system from the kicks anymore and it's pissing me off!

but i agree - they sound 100x *clearer* than the tmasters; its just that clarity is really not what i'm going for when i'm trying to shake the house.

[SCHLiTZ]

I love my Trackmaster II's... they are the best carts you can get for the money. Plus, like it's been said, they are workhourses and last forever.

[zartan]

i know i feel like a fool for listening to all this crap about other cartridges and feeling like i'm using some toy with the trackmasters and now realizing i love the Trackmasters sound. seriously in head-to-head test with trackmaster on one deck and shures on the other I swear anyone woiuld agree the TIIs sound *much* better with EDM.

I fall back tothe statement that the shures are probably better from the clarity and tracking standpoint, but can't beat the thump of the TIIs. I think I may buy new stylii for them and keep the shures as backups.

[Matt Sanborn]

dude Eric Trackmasters are the worst bro. Turn up the bass on your receiver or something mang. The whitelabels have awesome sound to 'em.

sucks it aint workin like you like

I use the M447's and love them

[zartan]

no, they're really not. i will demonstrate what i mean to you when you come by tomorrow. turning up the bass does not create the same thump as the trackmasters have. believe me i spent like 3 hours screwing with this stuff last night.

like i keep saying, i believe that whitelables, m447s, etc have 'better' sound but for that chest thump when you're not working with a club system with bass enhancement the trackmasters are the shit.

they don't track as well though so they are sketchy for scratching. WLs have them beat there.

[elad]

get a bigger subwoofer? :shrug:

[maz]

I use two white labels, and I love their sound quality. I also spin on very flat studio monitors with the bass response turned down. I still get a nice thump when spinning. Bass lines still sound warm and full when using them.

If I remember right the track masters that a room mate of mine had had an increased bass response. It made recordings sound like absolute shit, too bassy, not enough mids and highs.

Also when I'm mixing I never take my eqs above +/- 0dB gain. I'll cut them when mixing, but never boost them. I get great sounding mixes after I've done a little work on them digitally, after all if you think you're done recording without a little mastering touch you're just not doing it right.

I'd rather have what's supposed to come out, come out. Let other gear make it sound good on everything else. Isn't that what mix down of recorded material is for?

-maz

[zartan]

hmm. well i'll keep screwing with my settings i guess.

[SCHLiTZ]

Originally posted by maz

If I remember right the track masters that a room mate of mine had had an increased bass response. It made recordings sound like absolute shit, too bassy, not enough mids and highs.


The only time I've experienced this with TII's is with records that aren't pressed correctly and only the bass comes through. On proper records, the TII's do the job.

[zartan]

yeah - my direct to cd recordings are crisp as hell with 'em.

*missing my Tiis.

[dimitri]

I was messin with the white label's at XM the other the day... I was really impressed by them , they sound great. You just have to set em up correctly

[zartan]

i'm wliling to believe that - what could i be doing wrong in setup?

believe me none of the electrical shit is wrong - i've been wiring sound systems for 15 years (I was in a band etc). contacts clean etc. new records.

[SUSPECT]

It's all about the Ortofon's.:haha:

[Unfeign]

ah, Ortofons. i dont think anyone will deny their prowess, but then again, no one will deny the prowess of a Lamborghini. Orotofons have always seemed like the overpriced sportscar of the needle world to me: great needles, but what exactly are you compensating for by spending all of that money?

different needles will always have variations in sound, but it is strange that white labels would have a huge different in bass response like zartan has seen (although i dont discount that it is possible).
i guess all you can try is make sure the wires are all connected nice, clean all of hte contacts, check the needle tips out under a magnifying glass, and try them on another system. if they pass all of that and still dont sound good, it sounds like the white labels just aren't your bag.

[LovinBuzz]

If you really want to sell them, I would be interested. I like them better than the Trackmasters for a number of reasons. #1 being that the trackmasters are so light and harder to handle than the white labels. I need a cart with some substance.

[retail]

my white labels sound beautiful! :yes: if it's not too late, trade them in for another pair. could be simply a matter of a bum set :shrug:

[Paul Dailey]

Orotofons have always seemed like the overpriced sportscar of the needle world

Investing in good cartridges is one of the most important things a DJ can do...even the most expensive cart is a fraction of the cost of replacing valuable vinyl or risking that you sound like crap at a gig.

If you are just starting out or just playing at home, then it isnt a big deal I suppose, but if you are playing out it is very important to have good carts.

Also, I am pretty sure that White Lables are the same price (if not more) than Ortofon Nightclubs...so either way you are going to pay for quality.

[zartan]

i adjusted the tonearm weight somewhat (backed it off) and bass improved significantly.

e

[Unfeign]

huh, that might do it. less weight pressing down, letting the needle vibrate more to allow for a richer sound. i had never thought that would be an issue, but i can see how that might do it. interesting...

[psion's gate]

White labels don't need too much tonearm weight to begin with. You should be fine with just around 3 grams, depending on how you play.
I can tell you from first hand experience that white labels sound awesome on a real system. I used them with the same set up they have in the lounge at Sonar, at our Psion parties, and they simply filled the room with clarity. You could really hear the dynamics of the sound. Plus, I've had them for about 7 months, and haven't had to change the stylii. Every other needle I've ever played on, except the stanton 500s, have either busted or worn out in a small fraction of that time.

[uberclkgtr]

that's interesting. does changing the tone arm counterbalance weight effect the sound on all types of carts, or is there something peculiar about the shures?

[xX J-Dat Xx]

an incorrect counterbalance setting can affect the performance and frequency response dramatically. my nightclubs have been through the ringer and they still sound great. everyone should invest the $$$ to get a pair. youll immediately tell the difference and hardly ever have to change the stylee

[Unfeign]

i think, for now, i'm a whitelabel fan. after starting off with <gasp!> Discmasters, and trying out the usual assortment of needles in my price range, i like what the whitelabels have to offer. i have only worked with ortofon's a few times, though.

again: it's all about what you like. needles, like vinyl, are up to the DJ to figure out.

[n-root]

be sure to calibrate everything especially the stylus angle! if it is not perpendicular to the record it will lose freq response.

[Moebius]

I have shures, and they rock. Never had any problems with them. You might have your counter weights set too heavy.

Try setting them in the proper range.

[rajdeep]

be sure to calibrate everything especially the stylus angle! if it is not perpendicular to the record it will lose freq response.


Is this the same as adjusting the height of the tone arm? If not how does one adjust for this?

[n-root]

Originally posted by rajdeep

Is this the same as adjusting the height of the tone arm? If not how does one adjust for this?

this is for after adjusting your tonearm height. the whitelabels have a screw for setting it on the top of the cartridge

[djdavidmichael]

Actually...
You have to balance the Shure White labels correctly or they will sound bad...
Mine sound great!
WAY WAY better than my Ortophone Omz...
Personal Preference I guess???
the proof is in the puddin

[Moebius]

I will say however, that the shures were not made for scratchin. You can get some of the best sound ever out of them, but they do not track as well as carts made for scratchin. Only use them if you are serious about the sound quality of your mix.

[zartan]

someone else who has white labels on 1200s and feel they're set correctly - what settings are you using (i.e. height, weight, how far forward the cart is, etc)..

thanks!

[Moebius]

Shit man, I would have to go home and look.
http://www.sqratchattack.com/reviews/Whitelabel_Review.html
here is a review with all kinds of usefull info.

[zartan]

interesting - good artilce; thanks for the info. if you get a chance to note your settings some time i'd appreciate seeing 'em.

mine are sounding much better since i spent some time adjusting them - though they were skipping a bit during my party, it was only one of them and i'm betting that platter isn't perfectly level.

[Moebius]

What kind of tables do you have?

I don't have a matching set at home. I have 1 pt2000, and an tec 1210

I actually like the pt2000 more. the pitch control on it goes from +10 to -10 Pretty fuckin sweet eh?

Wish I had another pt2000.

[SCHLiTZ]

I got the next ones up the PDT-6000... they have +/- 4, 8, 16, and 35 settings, adjustable torque and stop, reverse, and key adjust.

[zartan]

1200s

[Moebius]

That fuckin rocks. I was strapped for cash when I bought. I should probably sell mine, and upgrade at some point, but not now. I am redoing my kitchen at the moment.

Goin all stainless. I found some sweet ass stainless cabnets.

[geecee]

since i got my white labels i have noticed a distinct difference...

i used groovemasters forever and also used trackmasters as a replacement styli when they did the buy 2 get free thing...

but the difference is in sound "quality"

tracks and especially the groovemasters are FAR louder and punchier... but are not as clean, and cause far more wear and tracking burn...

the difference in volume is far made up by the quality...

and i did try both as a comparison at different weights and heights...

but im really digging the white labels overall...

[J-punch/hook]

i have to agree. Ive been very pleased with these so far.

[Moebius]

can someone please change the topic to White Labels Rock, I need help adjusting?

[zartan]

done dawg

[Moebius]

http://www.yourethemannowdog.com/

[geecee]

what do you need to adjust?

they are pretty straight forward...

the further you push the head the more tracking force you will get, with the side effect of needle and record wear but more volume (in theory)

leaving it in the middle is your best bet...

[zartan]

i was rocking too much tracking weight and it was killing my bass - very thin.

[RaveChild]

ortofon pro...there is no other

[zartan]

:yap:

[DjAmP]

I got whitelables on my TTX's and they sound great!!!

[zartan]

yeah i'm liking mine too. they are really demanding on the setup though - if your decks aren't level they'll skip like hell...

[djdavidmichael]

Weird...
I've been playing for 10 years and have used everything from Ortophones to Stantons to Shures...
My white Labels sound WAY better than any of these...
You cannot just plug and play them though...You have to balance them correctly because they are so heavy....Too much weight on the point will seriously deter your sound...
You do know how to balance your needles correctly?
And I personally think that all stanton needles are better in the garbage...

[zartan]

if you read the thread, yes i've got them balanced now and they sound good.

i stand by my trackmaster IIs - they were good needles - but i do like the white label sound.

i've got them balanced now and the platters level (critical with the WLs) and they sound good. still not as thumpy on the bass as i'd prefer but i've eq-ed that mostly to my liking.

[DJZION]

Honestly, I think the Ortofons are the way to go.
And to the person who said they are too expensive:
The cartridge is basically a one-time buy. The styli themselves
are dirt cheap from www.djtronix.com. Like $15 to replace.
Thats just my IMO though and I haven't seen the White labels
yet.

[djdavidmichael]

Oh schit!!
Sorry...
5 Pages is grips to read!!!!
lol
Nice!

[Mitaic]

Originally posted by DJZION
Honestly, I think the Ortofons are the way to go.
And to the person who said they are too expensive:
The cartridge is basically a one-time buy. The styli themselves
are dirt cheap from www.djtronix.com. Like $15 to replace.
Thats just my IMO though and I haven't seen the White labels
yet.

they quote $30 for one.

[Mitaic]

I have ortofon, but now the bass is too heavy mudding the rest of the sound spectrum. What should I do?

[Mitaic]

guess it's just me that have this problem...

[2rip]

Yeah, you definitely need to know how to balance needles properly or it'll not only fuck w/ the sound but it can cause serious cue burn if you do a lot of tablism. So on a general note would you all recommend the WL's?? I really like my Track II's as well. Was never too impressed by Ortofon for some reason. They're great needles but the bass in Track II's is primo and they hold up FAIRLY well for scratching and juggling.

[zartan]

IMO i'd stick with TIIs rather than spend the cash on WLs (a little late for me). I'm sure all of the others on here will disagree tho. Not that the WLs are bad, just that the TIIs can be set to sound very good as well and are much cheaper.

[Fizzuct]

don't different cartridges weigh differently? i'd think you'd have to adjust your tone arm counter weight...right? i'm sure you did that already..i'm just thinking out loud i guess

[alastair]

I've had SSL for quite some time now, had encoded records using the same needles I use to play out, hence making the recording sound muddy after all.

I bought Shure Whitelabels for the sole purpose of encoding records (I know I could have gone a different route, but a friend works at Guitar Center and I got them at a good price)..

I can't seem to find that setting that makes 'em sound like butter.. (which I know they do, I have a few friends that have em and have heard for myself).. basically I took em outta the box, and followed the instructions for the "high fidelity" set-up, but I'm still getting raw bass, not punch bass like I've heard before..

anyone that can help me possibly set them up properly to re-encode my vinyl? (like I said, I thought I adjusted then according to the setup they show you.. but it just doesn't sound right).

any help??

GREATLY appreciated.

- alan

[proximity]

nightclub or stfu