matrix: Revolutions (WITH SPOILERS AND DISCUSSION)

[bboyneko]

I just bought my tickets for wed at Fandango.com! woohoo I cant wait.
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rv_img/photo_rev_oct_11.jpg
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rv_img/photo_rev_oct_10.jpg
http://whatisthematrix.warnerbros.com/rv_img/rv_poster_apu.jpg

[Taishou]

Oh shit, I forgot about this... def gotta check it out

[velvetgoldmire]

My roomate was telling me about a review that he read (he's only read the conclusions, so not to spoil any opf the movie for himself), and in the review, the guy said that he initially hated the second one, but Revolutions made him like Reloaded.

Worse comes to worse, it'll be really pretty to watch.

[bboyneko]

http://www.spawn.com/features/matrix2/images/morpheus2.photo.03.jpg

new toys from mcfarlane too!

[Dizardak]

:werd: got my tix for wed night

[bboyneko]

http://www.spawn.com/features/matrix2/images/trinity2.photo.03.jpg

[Dizardak]

http://perso.club-internet.fr/dito/fichesdvd/point_break/point_break.jpg

[bkidz]

I am going to the Senator on Wed 7:30PM show :breakdance:

btw, "I'M A FBI AGENT DOOOOOOD!!!"

:haha:

[DeAtHmOnGeR bEaR]

:woot:

Who lives in Arlington? Kristen, Dan, anyone else?? Who wants to go see this? FO'REAL!

[bboyneko]

http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/images/matrix2.jpg

i made this for the last movie :)

[maynard]

I'll be seeing this on Saturday, no doubt.

[bkidz]

Originally posted by bboyneko
http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/images/matrix2.jpg

i made this for the last movie :)

funny funny stuff :thumbsup:

[Ragin Bajin]

Originally posted by maynard
I'll be seeing this on Saturday, no doubt.

Liar.. It'll turn out like Reloaded, where you don't see it for months on end.. A group of us will come over after we steal it off the web and then you'll get to see it..

[velvetgoldmire]

CAN YOU DIG IT?!

[maynard]

:fu: Joe, I fully intend to see it on Saturday. Anyone game?

[tigermomma]

Lauren, why dont we go on Thursday night? Or perhaps we can get the tix early for Wed. I cant do it this weekend, but I dont want another Reloaded and not see it until a year later. :shrug:

[DeAtHmOnGeR bEaR]

Sure. Thursday night sounds AWESOME to me!
And then we can drive out to ALIAS and Alchemy and promote for a while :D

[tigermomma]

:werd: sounds like a plan :smooch:

[maynard]

:siihp:

[tigermomma]

:tarvis:

[DeAtHmOnGeR bEaR]

If you can pick up my ticket when you get yours? I'm mad busy tuesday and wednesday and thursday!
But then I'll have atleast a $20 with your name on it that night!

:crying2: I didn't get a paycheck! But I've been working, so I have my own gas money and I'll hit you back w. some of this drinking money I owe you :chug

[nyhope]

i am going wednesday night in g-town...

joe, my little brother should have it in two weeks, tops. :woot:

[iminxtc]

im seeing it on wednesday late night at arundel mills, bought my tickects earlier!

[Capital Zero]

there is no spoon

[bkidz]

What's the deal with Bmore and DC IMAX theaters not showing Matrix Revolutions. . . really :wtf: Are the proprietors of those IMAX theaters worried about a bunch of crazed yahoos filling up their venues to see the movie, therefore making them lots of money? :shrug:

[bboyneko]

usually the imax releases are done a few weeks after general theatrical release

[bkidz]

The marketing behind Revolutions has prided themselves on a simultaneous worldwide release on IMAX and regular run theaters. However, the closest IMAX theater that is showing Revolutions is in NY. . . . :wtf:

[Ragin Bajin]

Originally posted by maynard
:fu: Joe, I fully intend to see it on Saturday. Anyone game?

:afterbuzz:

I might see it again on Saturday..

I got tickets to 9am's showing here in Sterling..

[nyhope]

Originally posted by Ragin Bajin


:afterbuzz:

I might see it again on Saturday..

I got tickets to 9am's showing here in Sterling..

you are a bigger movie dork than aaron! i am amazed.

[bboyneko]

i will see it twice or thrice in theatres

[Joigazm]

I just got my tickets for Regal Rockville @ 7:20! :specialed:

[Ragin Bajin]

Originally posted by nyhope


you are a bigger movie dork than aaron! i am amazed.


:shady:




:D :yes:

[lali]

i got my tix for zero hour, 9am on wed

[bboyneko]

zero hour is actually midnight on tuesday..well technically midnight wedsday morning..whatever

[nyhope]

Originally posted by Ragin Bajin



:shady:




:D :yes:


excuse me, joe you are a super dedicated movie guy!! :bigpimp:

[lali]

i could not find a midnite showing, the threater dood told me it was 9am

[Hitoi]

Looking forward to seeing this but Concorde Dawn is on wednesday. Keanu will have to be put off until friday.

[Ragin Bajin]

Originally posted by nyhope



excuse me, joe you are a super dedicated movie guy!! :bigpimp:

:raveon:

:D

[Webslinger]

I have one thing to say about that movie...... BAD ASS this movie has rules all movies that have ever come out up until now.

[nyhope]

were you at the 9am showing too? how long is the film?

DO NOT TELL DETAILS! i have to wait another 10 hours.

[Webslinger]

If you did not burn vacation time or call in sick I am highly disappointed in all of you that were not at the 9am showing. its about 2 hours long

[nyhope]

Originally posted by Webslinger
If you did not burn vacation time or call in sick I am highly disappointed in all of you that were not at the 9am showing. its about 2 hours long


:afterbuzz:


i actually am making my boy and his roomate wait till later to see it b/c i am stuck at work.

[Webslinger]

Like I said if you did not call in sick or use vacation or did not hold someone hostage to go see that movie at 9 am I am very very unpleased.

[Ragin Bajin]

ummm yes.. This movie was totally Baditcal!!!!!

[uberclkgtr]

i'm seeing this tonight. can't wait.

[bkidz]

I have tickets for the Senator in bmore for 7:30PM

:breakdance:

[retail]

did anyone catch the review in the Washington Post today?

O U C H

[uberclkgtr]

Originally posted by bkidz
I have tickets for the Senator in bmore for 7:30PM

the senator will be a great place to see this movie.

[bkidz]

Originally posted by retail
did anyone catch the review in the Washington Post today?

O U C H

I never read movie or music reviews in the Post or bmore Sun. The peeps that write those reviews are a bunch of TOOLS.

[bkidz]

Originally posted by uberclkgtr


the senator will be a great place to see this movie.

If it were showing at the IMAX, that would own :yes:. The Senator though probably has the loudest sound system in Bmore as far as theaters go.

[Ragin Bajin]

I think they are.. Atleast in DC I thought they were showing it on Imax.

[bkidz]

Nope nearest IMAX showing the Matrix is in NY, NY

[Bioteknik]

Originally posted by retail
did anyone catch the review in the Washington Post today?

O U C H

personally i don't give a shit what the post has to say about it.... plus i don't want it to give anything away, i'm seeing it tonight at hoffman in alexandria.. stadium seating and digital sound

[retail]

whatever. i just read it and felt it was worth posting. i'm still very excited to see the movie as well...

[Webslinger]

I hate when you get someone to review movies cause they give movies like the Piano these huge reviews and movies like the Matrix the shit end of the stick.

[iminxtc]

saw it.

[Charran]

was it worth watching?

[vdogg]

I saw it and thought it was fucking amazing

[Webslinger]

Vdogg your review thank you so much. Anyone who does not like this movie is =:dan:

[iminxtc]

def worth watching!

[housecat]

Originally posted by Bioteknik


personally i don't give a shit what the post has to say about it.... plus i don't want it to give anything away, i'm seeing it tonight at hoffman in alexandria.. stadium seating and digital sound
Best... theatre... EVER

[flyvin]

The second was a let down from the first, but usually bridge movies aren't as good as the first and last. But from all the reviews that i've read, i'm not having a good feeling about this... :sadblue:

[DeiJunglist]

Bomb ass movie!!!

Nuff said.

[Moebius]

I liked it all in all, but there were some scenes that just sucked ass.

[Joigazm]

There were some scenes that were just plain corny but all in all it was a great movie experience for me. I absolutely loved it. Matirx rawks.

[breaks princess]

Originally posted by Bioteknik


personally i don't give a shit what the post has to say about it.... plus i don't want it to give anything away, i'm seeing it tonight at hoffman in alexandria.. stadium seating and digital sound

werd. I saw Kill Bill there and swore I would never see a movie in another theatre again. that place is out of this world.

[iminxtc]

I used to go to the hoffman all the time and still do if im in that area but. anywho, last time i was there i saw this huge fight between a teenager and a middle aged woman! soda and popcorn everywhere!

[Gizmo]

Don't go anywhere except the Hoffman to see movies. It'll be a waste of money if you do.

As for the Matrix, I think it was incredibly well made *for its own ending*. I was disappointed at the ending itself, but in its own universe it excelled beautifully.

I thought the Wachowski brothers would have more to say about the matrix itself, and the "answers" wouldn't be as clear cut as they were... I was also hoping the third movie would be as thought-provoking and intelligent as the first. In my opinion, it's not. It's more linear and more passive than the first and second movies, and doesn't involve YOU directly like the first one did. While Matrix 1 and 2 were mostly questions without answers, this one is all answers. While most people have been expecting that and enjoy that, I personally find it more fulfilling to be left with a million more questions instead of walking away smiling at the punchline. But that's just me.

[bkidz]

Where is the Hoffman?

I went to the Senator in bmore. . . their sound system is :dabomb::slap:. All the action sequences where in your face with some loud bass that rattled my seat. :thumbsup:

[evey]

Originally posted by Gizmo
Don't go anywhere except the Hoffman to see movies. It'll be a waste of money if you do.

I'll vouch for that! :raveon:

[nyhope]

Originally posted by Gizmo
Don't go anywhere except the Hoffman to see movies. It'll be a waste of money if you do.

As for the Matrix, I think it was incredibly well made *for its own ending*. I was disappointed at the ending itself, but in its own universe it excelled beautifully.

I thought the Wachowski brothers would have more to say about the matrix itself, and the "answers" wouldn't be as clear cut as they were... I was also hoping the third movie would be as thought-provoking and intelligent as the first. In my opinion, it's not. It's more linear and more passive than the first and second movies, and doesn't involve YOU directly like the first one did. While Matrix 1 and 2 were mostly questions without answers, this one is all answers. While most people have been expecting that and enjoy that, I personally find it more fulfilling to be left with a million more questions instead of walking away smiling at the punchline. But that's just me.

:werd: cortney you expressed a lot of what i thought about the movie.

also, the music really bothered me to the point of distraction.

[housecat]

Originally posted by bkidz
Where is the Hoffman?

I went to the Senator in bmore. . . their sound system is :dabomb::slap:. All the action sequences where in your face with some loud bass that rattled my seat. :thumbsup:
In Alexandria near Telegraph Rd.

[bkidz]

Is that right off the beltway? I've been to the KKD in Alexandria, that's about it.

[Dizardak]

YAY Peace!!! FUCKING HORRIBLE. I really just don't get it. So humans are cool with letting what 1/2 the population continue to be enslaved by the machines? I'm glad the matrix was saved so the vampires can continue to throw their parties. You can't build up 4 years and 2 movies worth of Humans Vs. Machines to at the last second make it Humans & Machines against a much less formatiable opponent. The architect just kinda shows up and seems cool with the whole thing at the end too, wtf? They jacked into the matrix once in this movie, ONCE. They went from stylistic, mind bending fight scenes to fucking gorilla tactics and machine gun duels. Life sure is boring when they're not in the matrix.

Sidenote: We need more than 1 minute of Belluchi. And apparenlty her and Meriviogian (sp) were cool again after she killed 1/2 his gave Neo the keymaster and killed half his henchmen?!?

[housecat]

http://www.investor.amctheatres.com/news/20010601-55728.cfm


Hoffman Center info

[JHawk]

D, im with you and your thoughts, but we had to see this coming. Its all about choice, and do we choose to live in peace (though some are still enslaved?) or do we continue to fight for our beliefs and die? so in a way the movie still asks questions with no definitive answer, just answers to this specific level of "being". This is the 7th neo right? so who's to say that the equilibrium will not be broken again and a new neo with a different choice may appear? i think the final thought of the movie is what do you, personally choose? freedom, love, peace, war? what is acceptable to you to achieve what you desire most?

[bkidz]

Originally posted by JHawk
D, im with you and your thoughts, but we had to see this coming. Its all about choice, and do we choose to live in peace (though some are still enslaved?) or do we continue to fight for our beliefs and die? so in a way the movie still asks questions with no definitive answer, just answers to this specific level of "being". This is the 7th neo right? so who's to say that the equilibrium will not be broken again and a new neo with a different choice may appear? i think the final thought of the movie is what do you, personally choose? freedom, love, peace, war? what is acceptable to you to achieve what you desire most?

I love that avatar. . . . I had mine as RITM as of yesterday, but changed it.

[Dizardak]

Originally posted by JHawk
D, im with you and your thoughts, but we had to see this coming. Its all about choice, and do we choose to live in peace (though some are still enslaved?) or do we continue to fight for our beliefs and die? so in a way the movie still asks questions with no definitive answer, just answers to this specific level of "being". This is the 7th neo right? so who's to say that the equilibrium will not be broken again and a new neo with a different choice may appear? i think the final thought of the movie is what do you, personally choose? freedom, love, peace, war? what is acceptable to you to achieve what you desire most?

but that's what i still don't get some of the humans are still enslaved so how are we living in peace? who makes the decision on who is scarificed to the machines? what are we pagans? and i thought they threw all that 7th neo shit out the window after he choose the "other" door at the end of 2. at that point he was no longer folowing the orders of the matrix programs (i.e. the architech/oracle). bottom line is this movie should have been called revolutions. cause they spend no time in the matrix which is what we went to the first 2 movies to see. Are we really suppose to care that Link's wife saves spoonboy? Not to mention Morpheus becomes Neinmumb to Niobe's Lando and is completely written out of any sort of importance to the ending. i totally understand the fucking man/machine co-existance shit, but i don't like it and as a movie this one fucking sucked. At least after reloaded you still had the eye candy of the burly brawl or the freeway chase if you didn't enjoy where the plot went. This movie gave us nothing. The only sequence even remotely interesting was the shootout with the vampires at the beginnning of the film. Lastly the music sucked. And I like epic scores for films but it didn't fit the matrix movies. Where was the techno?

[uberclkgtr]

Originally posted by Gizmo
As for the Matrix, I think it was incredibly well made *for its own ending*. I was disappointed at the ending itself, but in its own universe it excelled beautifully.

:werd:

The ending left me pretty unsatisfied - it left some of my most basic questions about the movies unanswered. I was expecting that ending somewhat, but not the way it occurred. It was somewhat confusing. Good one to ponder though.

Good movie though. Amazing effects. That wide-eyed kid was pretty damn cheese though. He really needed to shut up more.

Juno Reactor did a good chunk of the music for it.

[Gizmo]

I just dug up/finished reading the 2 threads for Matrix:Reloaded that took place last year (?) and I gotta say that this board has taken a colossal blow in the interest department. It's almost saddening. Anyway, after reading those threads I've got a few more things to say on this movie, because a lot of people had a lot of questions that were left unanswered.

I'm REALLY upset that it didn't even bother explaining Persiphone's purpose (which was debated for a good 3 pages), and only seemed to feature her onscreen for the sole intent of showing her and Merg in new coordinated outfits.

I'm disappointed that it didn't even entertain the idea of the nested matricies OR the "divine" purpose of the characters (aka shed some light on Trinity's character other than her blinding love for Neo, or on the Architect other than a 5-second blurb at the end).

While really really impressive, this movie focused too much on war scenes and not on the deeper issues that viewers had with the storyline. The end fight scene between Neo and Smith was also well-made, but left something to be desired in terms of meaning. Yes, Neo won, but we got NO explanation as to HOW he won. We assume he manipulated Smith's code from the "inside," but all we know is that suddenly all the Smiths shoot light out of their orfices and everything is right again.

And the ending. Jeeze, that really pushed all my buttons. Cheesy and incomprehensible. The conversation between the Oracle and the Architect left MORE unanswered questions, while simultaneoulsy trying to convince us that the story is over. And walking into the sunset? Come on... in those old Matrix 2 threads we were talking about giving the brothers "more credit" than that.

Not all of it was disappointing though. The scene where Trinity sees the sun was just amazingly beautiful and touching, as well as Neo's inner "sight" that lended the machines a certain element of beauty that we didn't get to see in the first 2 movies.



Side note: I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but the boy that gave the spoon to Neo in the 2nd movie, and opened the hatch in this movie... that's the skateboarding kid in the Animatrix episode... one of the only people (if not THE only) that became unplugged from dying inside the matrix.

[LaPistola]

*sigh*

Felt kinda let down by the whole Matrix thing. "Reloaded" & "Revolutions" while entertaining, did in NO way live up to the potential of the original film. If no sequels had been made to the original we'd have an undisputed sci-fi classic (actually, it IS a classic). Of course, now we have an uneven (at best) trilogy.

I liked the fact that everything wasn't entirely explained (mystery is cool), the battle scenes were cool and the score was great (buy all three of the soundtracks, seriously). The sequels were too long, overripe plotting and way too many long dull patches.

One thing that I did dig was if you played the videogame and watched the Animatrix you understood the backstories of some of the characters and their motivations.

What do I know? I'm not Roger Ebert.

BTW, as good as the AMC Hoffman 22 is, it doesn't compare to the Muvico Egyptian 24 at Arundel Mills.

[JHawk]

here's my response to the questions on the oracle and architect. in revolutions, the focus of the movie seems to be on balance. ying and yang, dark and light, good and evil. with that in mind then the oracle is the one who represents peace, and architect chaos. as for the purpose of this? i believe that the warchowskis were trying to implement that the world we live in is a constant cycle. there is no perfect ending with peace and humans all interacting peacefully and civil. to have peace, chaos must exist, and same goes for good, evil must also exist. and like the movie quotes, every beginning must have an end. so, how does this tie in with the first 2 movies...well a big idea left unanswered in the first 2 films was that of freedom and slavery...but as the third one is trying to portray, in order for one to exist so does the other. does that mean that even if we are free to make our own choice, are we still slaves? or does being enslaved offer a more valued sense of freedom? again, as stated before it "revolves" back to individuality, and what you are willing to give up in order to attain.

[JHawk]

on the movie itself, the ending, to me was expected...though not as riveting and exciting as the first but how many trilogies on fact do? the first movie set so many new standards as to what we, an audience expects that there is no way, time, budget, etc, that the third one was going to be as good, if not better then the first. personally i feel that a lot of you put too many expectations on the third movie and were just dissappointed that they were not met by watching the movie alone. as for the music and soundtrack though i have to agree. it was horrible in revolutions, music can easily make or break the film and this film definitely could have used the help.

[LaPistola]

Originally posted by Gizmo
I'm REALLY upset that it didn't even bother explaining Persiphone's purpose

Persephone's purpose: bOObies!

:specialed:

[binger]

Originally posted by Dizardak
http://perso.club-internet.fr/dito/fichesdvd/point_break/point_break.jpg

man i love that movie

[Article One]

you know, everyone keeps saying how confused they are by certain things and this and that but quite frankly, i think they were pretty clear about everything. :shrug:

my only complaint is that the dialogue sucked. "I believe, Neo." :rolleyes: come on, who wrote the last one, george lucas???

someone asked about the enslaved humans. the architect said himself that they will be freed. i dont understand what the problem is.

as far as the ending, neo died, allowing smith to copy himself into neo's "body". the machines realized what he had done and why, and they killed the body, thereby killing smith...ALL of him. Smith was a program that really had no "root" if you will. but all smiths were smith, so when neo created that root and let the machine destroy him, they all died. you might say this is me speculating and that they still didnt tell us exactly what happened. and you would be right. but i mean, do you want everything spelled out to you. further, i think if they were to try and explain it, it would just lead to more horrible and forced dialog.

[Article One]

further, i went into the movie expecting a horrible ending. if you think about it, it was going to be bad no matter what. because the story line is so diverse and incredibly imaginative, no matter what the ending was it was going to be a dissappointment. So much so, that it is even extraneous to the movie.


the ending wasnt actually horrible, but nothing could possibly live up to the expectations your mind has built up over the past couple years as to what the ending might be.

[Milkman John]

ya know, some of us haven't seen it yet

thanks a bunch

[Article One]

um...then dont read the thread entitled Matrix: Revolutions created for specifically talking about, you guessed it, Matrix Revolutions.

[Gizmo]

damn, I thought this thread was about Disney-themed needlepoint patterns.


SHIT!

[bboyneko]

http://www.jehovahswitnessonline.com/images/matrixsucks.jpg

[elad]

Originally posted by Gizmo
damn, I thought this thread was about Disney-themed needlepoint patterns.
SHIT!
:ripped:

I WANT MY FITTED PETER PAN OUTFIT WITH MY NAME ENGRAVED !! :dammit: :gay:

[Article One]

i dont understand how you can call this movie a disappointment. it was a kick ass entertaining movie about love, war, kung fu, guns, science fiction, and the very definition of emotions. what the hell else do you people want?

its like if every aspect of a movie doesnt blow you away, "it sucks". movies are for entertainment. this movie was really entertaining and resolved a storyline that i have been anxiously awaiting to have resolved.

but whatever, if you hated it you hated it. but i thought it rocked.

[Webslinger]

Can I get a hand clap for Doug. I believe what he does everyone built this movie up to such a high expectation in their minds like Doug said you would have been disappointed no matter what. On a side not I hate to say but the fighting in the Air could only make me think of one thing. Dragon Ball Z damnit its a lock that they will make a live action Dragon Ball Z movie.

[bboyneko]

Why was it dissapointing? Why did it teh suck?

1- No one wins (machines STILL enslave humanity AND have upper hand..id say you could argue machines are winners)

2- Fight scenes sucked (why? Neo and smith just take turns throwing and landing dragon ball z attacks..not much actual blocking etc..the fights in reloaded were 100 times better..and it just stands to reason that the FINAL FUCKING FIGHT would be the fight to end all fights..hence the suckage)

3- Trinity survives the 2nd movie to fulfill her ultimate purpose: to be Neo's cheauffer

4- The inside of these ships must be made out of Ginsu knifes, people keep on getting fucking impaled

5- How does one overcome the AWE DEFYING SUPER MACHINE DEFENSES around 01? Fly over them...

6- In order to undesratand fully about the child born of love and the oracles demise, you have to have played the video game
(its not that much of a story too..someone the oracle trusted sold her termination codes to the frenchman, who in turn deleted her..but she found a new shell..she went thru it cus she said the child is the most important thing)

7- To defeat smith..neo must umm..become a suicide bomber..I guess pretty much anyone culda beaten smith then..they wuld have just needed to let him over-write them, then blow up their body

8- We spend the entire movie with mostly secondary characters and care little for them. Did you honestly give a shit about Link and his wittle gawfwend? Or about that fucking annoying kid? he had an interesting story in the animatrix..he came back to live even tho he commited suicide in the matrix..the mind existing without the body...or whatnot..they dont explore that one iota in this film

9- The climatic squids vs zion battle put me to sleep. I just stopped caring when I was expected to beleive, as an audience member, that even 100 mechs could stand more than 30 seconds against 250,000 squids..the mechs werent even moving! theys tood there..the squids could just fucking run and up and stab each occupant, since they dont have armor over the canopy..just some flimsy bars.

10- Your telling me all it takes is one EMP to take out 250,000 squids? Then WHY THE FUCK dont they have a super emergency EMP in zion? Youd think they would think ahead. And even today, we can shield electronic equipment from EMP bursts

11- Machines cant get bubonic plaque etc..so the ultimate weapon machines could use would be not mechanized squids with ineffecient lasers and claws as weapons, but biological ones..why not just bomb zion with a genetically engineered plaque? Wipe out the humans in zion without much effort.

12- the very cool concept of machines creating a child program out of love is not explored at all. This was the one thing that could have really changed the movie and made it good

13- The Kid didn't know for sure the war was over..no one did for sure. They simply "beleived" neo had saved them..without a single shred of proof. Isnt this ridiculously foolish thing to do? Why not barricade and wait for official word?

14- Neos little exchange with Bane/smith was ridiculous. How idiotic does neos character need to be?

Neo: "Who are you?"

Bane (in a note-perfect Agent Smith voice): "Don't you know, Mr. Anderson?"

Neo: "Tell me who you are?"

BANE: "Mr. Anderson, I think you do know who I am..."

Neo: : "No, I don't."

BANE: "Don't you recognize my voice? The Mr. Anderson part?"

Neo: "......."

BANE: "Black suit? Sunglasses?

Neo: "......."

BANE: Receding hairline? 'Mr. Anderson.' Any of this ringing a bell?"

Neo: "That's all fine, but WHO are you?"

[Dizardak]

i have to agree with almost every point neko makes. Most importantly 2, 8, and 12. A lot of peopel have said they enjoyed the movie, but didn't like the conclusion. I'd have to say I 100% did not enjoy the movie, nor like the conclusion. But then again I don't care much for Star Trek which is what they made this nonsense into. Fucking strategery and spaceship battles. "Move 70% power to starbird fleet"...um, how bout you get in the matrix and fight with swords instead??? All these main characters you thought were so cool and badass were all just chumps in the "real" world. And the fact that spoonboy got more screen time than Morpheus makes this a bad movie period. Lastly i'll reitterate what I've said a few times that makes this movie boring, they hack into the matrix ONCE!!

[Article One]

dude, its a fucking MOVIE. let your imagination run, soak it up, enjoy it. just because you can find flaws in the plot etc, doesnt mean it sucks.

[Article One]

some of your points are correct, but christ, when you start talking about things like "use biological weapons" and stuff, you are getting a bit carried away.

[Article One]

say what you want, i think what a lot of people are forgetting is that they had this idea that was WAY bigger than they had ever imagined, so there really wasnt time to go "exploring concepts" for certain things. they had a story to follow, and they followed it. personally, i think the fact that there were a lot of side characters who were IMPORTANT for once, and not just there to die as an extra was a good thing and made it more believable... as in, there arent like 3 people in the whole world who are going to just save EVERY SINGLE PERSON ALIVE. everyone does their part, everyone fights for their lives, and they win them. i thought that was cool.





...the kid WAS corny though. :afterbuzz:

[switchstance]

This movie was the worse piece of shit I have ever wasted the money to watch.

Fuck the Wachowski Brothers.

They had the balls to leave it open for yet ANOTHER Matrix sequel? Give me a break!! Americans are stupid, yes, but not THAT stupid.

What a joke!

[Dizardak]

Originally posted by Article One
dude, its a fucking MOVIE. let your imagination run, soak it up, enjoy it. just because you can find flaws in the plot etc, doesnt mean it sucks.

my point though was that ontop of my problems with the plot i really didn't enjoy the movie as a movie either. i thought it was slow, dull, boring and didn't tease your brain the way the other two did.

[bboyneko]

Making secondary characters important to the plot dosent automatically make us as an audience care about them.

there were a lot of side characters who were IMPORTANT for once, and not just there to die as an extra was a good thing and made it more believable.

Unimportant characters "just there to die as an extra"

1-Lesbian girl with rocket launcher who gets skewered an POWNED by the sentinals

2- Wide-faced captain with red hair who gets stabbed with surgical knife

3- The stupid captain who gets his face sliced up

[Gizmo]

all right, you're a jackass sometimes, Dan, but I gotta agree with you here.


All I'm saying is that Reloaded did a kick-ass job of living up to the original, and was SO cryptic that the only way you could understand it at all was to invent your own plot/contrive your own answers, which is what made it so intriguing.... and which would inevitably lead you to extrapolate on movie #3. EVERYONE who did so (even you Doug) thought that the third one was going to blow the audience away by proving everyone wrong and coming up with an amazing twist. Reloaded seemed designed to set up the third one, not to provide a landing strip for a pre-made plot. Sure, they had a story to tell and they told it, but Glitter did that too. Doesn't make it a good movie necessarily. The point of the original matrix is that it DIDN'T tell a story, it asked you questions, involved you specifically and alienated and startled you. Matrix 1 and 2 were riddles. Revolutions was a bedtime story.


I'm not saying I didn't enjoy it immensely. I did.

[bkidz]

I think this topic is done. Prepare for the . . . . . .

*unsheathes Samurai sword*
*shhhhhinnng*

*gets in battle stance*

[Gizmo]

No. I'M *shhhing*!

[bkidz]

Here ya go

I'm going to say this in English so
you know how serious I am. As your
leader, I encourage you to -- from
time to time and always in a
respectful manner, and with the
complete knowledge that my decision
is final -- to question my logic.
If you're unconvinced a particular
plan of action I've decided is the
wisest, tell me so. But allow me to
convince you. And I will promise
you, right here and now, no subject
will be taboo...except the subject
that was just under discussion.

O-REN (JAPANESE)
(to a bodyguard)
Hand me that head.

He picks it off the floor and meekly offers it to the Queen.

She takes it by the hair and holds it up as she speaks.

O-REN (ENGLISH)
The price you pay for bringing up
either my Chinese or my American
heritage as a negative is, I
collect your fuckin head.
(now completely American)
Just like this fucker here. Now if
any of you sonsabitches got
anything else to say, now's the
fuckin time.

[bkidz]

*shhhhinng* *shhhinng*

[Gizmo]

We have unfinished business.

[bboyneko]

Originally posted by Gizmo
all right, you're a jackass sometimes, Dan, but I gotta agree with you here.

damn skippy..us former cult members need to stick together:buttsex:

[bkidz]

We have unfinished business.


__________________





Sorry everybody, but I'm afraid
we're going to have to close the
place. There's some private
business that we must attend to
now.

[Article One]

Originally posted by Gizmo
The point of the original matrix is that it DIDN'T tell a story, it asked you questions, involved you specifically and alienated and startled you. Matrix 1 and 2 were riddles. Revolutions was a bedtime story.




how many times and in how many different ways can you ask the same questions to the audience? IMO, the movie would have been terrible if all it did was not answer any of the questions i already had and simply asked new ones...and im not just talking about plot resolution. i dunno, i understand all your points and you are correct that it didnt live up to my expectations, but like i said before, it couldnt possibly have done so anyway.

i will agree with aaron too about only plugging into the matrix 2 times in the whole movie...:dan:

[Gizmo]

http://www.buzzlife.com/mssg_brd/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16048&highlight=matrix+reloaded

http://www.buzzlife.com/mssg_brd/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15980&highlight=matrix+reloaded


Once again, the movie was excellent for its own purposes. I enjoyed it. I just wish it had the.... magic. *sigh*

:wink:

[Article One]

more :velvet: and :buttsex:??

is that what you mean by magic?? i know you are disappointed you didnt get to see keanu's ass again.

[SiK BuG]

Well I just watched it tonight at my friends house, no theater for me yet. As much as I heard shit talk about the ending I didn't think it was to to bad. Looks like they really left it open at the end though for more movies. I just can't wait to watch it in the theater next time around.

[Shawn_E]

Okay, first thing's first: This didn't answer all the questions. It brought up new ones as well.

Now, it does complete the tale of the war, which is good. And unlike many people (appearantly), I get the whole Smith thing, the war thing, thing with the kid, and the ending with the peace thing.

Answers for those who didn't get it yet:

First off, you need to understand "programs".

Programs in the Matrix world take the form of people, obviously. But they have constraints. Not the same constraints people do, but constraints imposed upon them nonethess.

Okay. These programs are essentially independant AI's working for the Matrix itself. Think of it like an army. You've got the Architect at the top doing the job of CEO and a bunch of underlings. They don't actually "control" the Matrix. It's too complex to control directly like that. Instead, they supervise and adjust when needed, by heavy change (deja-vu inducing mods) or by direct action (going in as an entity and kicking some ass).

Now, these programs have existence only as bits. It's a computer simulation, after all. But the Matrix is an independant simulation and they don't actually live inside it all the time. They leave, when needed, and go home. Programs at home base do the work of maintaining the whole system and keeping it all running. Programs with nothing to do at home get deleted. This is obviously terrifying if you happen to be an AI program. So they are constrained by the home base to continue to be useful.

These are independant entities, remember. Some of them, like the Mervogian and so forth, have gone rogue. They can exist in the Matrix itself because the Matrix is running independantly and not subject to heavy duty control. That's the only way it can exist and support so many people inside it, sort of thing. The Matrix is controlled by those inside it. These "laws of nature" exist because everyone there thinks they exist. The world is one that everyone agrees on, sort of thing. This isn't really a new philosophical concept about the world, look it up.

The train station and the trainman is a secret passage, sort of thing, between home base and the Matrix proper. He created it as a waypoint between the two areas. The two programs from home base are taking their kid to the Oracle for protection because she has no purpose. If she stayed in the home base, she'd be deleted. She appearantly gets a purpose at the end of the movie by making the sun rise though.

Anyway, Smith was set "free" by Neo destroying him in the first movie. He says as much in the second movie. By "set free", he means that he's gone rogue. Since he was destroyed in the Matrix, he should have returned to home base for deletion. He didn't. He rebelled and gained some power from the merging of him and Neo. He learned how to infect others, for one thing. Neo did just that to him in the first movie, remember?

So he goes around infecting everybody. He infects the Oracle and gets her Oracular powers, in fact. Remember that the Mervogian wanted her eyes? That's a symbol, sort of thing. The Oracle was designed to be an intuitive AI program (Architect lets that slip during the second movie) and her eyes are the symbols of that.

Okay, so he takes control of all this stuff. Neo finds out that Smith has so much power over the Matrix by this relentless self-duplication, that the programs in home base can no longer control him. He's gained vast control over the Matrix itself by simply becoming everyone in it. They can't tolerate him either, but they lack the power to stop him.

Neo, however, has control of the Matrix by the fact that he's "the one". He found that power in the first movie. Smith can't control the Matrix by virtue of his own mind alone, the duplication gives him that power by having many minds thinking the same thing at once. Neo has that power because his mind is free and he knows it's not real. Smith knows it's not real but being a program he is constrained by the rules of the Matrix, which he can now change to some degree. This all puts Neo and Smith on virtually equal footing. The balancing of the equation, as the Oracle put it.

In any case, Smith infects Neo. And that's his downfall, because he's still constrained by the reality of the situation, which is that a death in the real world is a death in the Matrix, and vice versa. So when Neo gets infected and Smith takes over his body, the Architect (via the machine world) kills Neo. Since Smith is inhabiting him, this kills Smith as well and Smith gets deleted from the Matrix, according to the rules of the Matrix. It had to be Neo and not one of the other people Smith has infected because Neo is the only one with natural control over the Matrix itself, and therefore his control forces that death to occur in the Matrix as well. They could have explained this better, but the clues are there anyway.

The deal brokered (off screen) was that Neo would do this in order to buy a peace between free humans and machines. The Architect agreed to free humans who wanted to be freed from the Matrix as well in order to take care of the Smith problem. Neo was really only willing to take this course of action because Trinity died, sort of thing. That's why she had to die plot-wise, so that Neo wouldn't have any ties to prevent him from doing it. He gave beating the hell out of Smith a shot, but when he couldn't win without sacrificing himself, he gave in and did it. Note that he chose the other way in the second movie because of Trinity. So she had to go to finish the story.

Now, like I said, this movie didn't answer some things:
a) Why can Neo control or destroy the machines in the real world?
b) Why can he see this fire type deal when he's blinded?
c) How the hell did he get his conciousness knocked into the Train Station in the beginning without any connection to the Matrix or the machines at all?

If you consider the spiritual side of the movie, then you can come up with answers, but frankly I find that really unsatisfying. They should have either made these answers plain or figured out a better plot without these holes in it.

[bboyneko]

shawn_e, I got all those points and more in my frist sitting, I still felt the movie was a huge dissapointment.

[empath]

Okay, I saw it, I loved it. I don't know what anyone's problem is :).

No it does not have the answers, but honestly, to answer the kinds of questions they posed in the previous movies, they'd have to be the greatest philosophers known to man.

I think the answer to the movie hinges on what "The Source" is.

Personally, I think that there IS another level of reality to the matrix, the spiritual. And "The Source" is THE source. The brahma... God.

The machines are becoming spiritual creatures, just as humans are, and neo is as much the messiah of the machines as he is of the humans.

[empath]

More thoughts on the movie (I posted this on another messageboard):

Aside from the film-making flaws (bad acting, poor characterization, etc) that have really been present in all the movies in the series, I thought it was brilliant.

I don't understand why people are upset that so many questions brought up by the movie were left unresolved. They're questions that have been plaguing humanity for thousands of years, I doubt a sci-fi movie is going to be able to answer them.

That said, I think an understanding of what happened in the third movie depends on what you think "The Source" is. It's referred to quite a bit, but never (I don't think) defined. I believe it is something analogous to Brahma.

http://w3.gwis.com/~ajmani/brahma.html

"BRAHMA - THE CREATOR
Brahma, the infinite, _the source_ of all space, time, causation, names and forms"

Alternatively, The Source could be seen as the origin god of Gnosticism, which has many aspects in common with Brahma:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm

>>In the beginning was the Depth; the Fulness of Being; the Not-Being God; the First Father, the Monad, the Man; the First Source, the unknown God (Bythos pleroma, ouk on theos, propator, monas, anthropos, proarche, hagnostos theos), or by whatever other name it might be called. This undefined infinite Something, though it might be addressed by the title of the Good God, was not a personal Being, but, like Tad of Brahma of the Hindus, the "Great Unknown" of modern thought. The Unknown God, however, was in the beginning pure spirituality; matter as yet was not. This source of all being causes to emanate (proballei) from itself a number of pure spirit forces. In the different systems these emanations are differently named, classified, and described, but the emanation theory itself is common too all forms of Gnosticism. In the Basilidian Gnosis they are called sonships (uiotetes), in Valentinianism they form antithetic pairs or "syzygies" (syzygoi); Depth and Silence produce Mind and Truth; these produce Reason and Life, these again Man and State (ekklesia). According to Marcus, they are numbers and sounds. These are the primary roots of the Æons. With bewildering fertility hierarchies of Æons are thus produced, sometimes to the number of thirty. These Æons belong to the purely ideal, noumenal, intelligible, or supersensible world; they are immaterial, they are hypostatic ideas. Together with the source from which they emanate they form the pleroma. The transition fromthe immaterial to the material, from the noumenal to the sensible, is brought about by a flaw, or a passion, or a sin, in one of the Æons. According to Basilides, it is a flaw in the last sonship; according to others it is the passion of the female Æon Sophia; according to others the sin ofthe Great Archon, or Æon-Creator, of the Universe. The ultimate end of all Gnosis is metanoia, or repentance, the undoing of the sin of material existence and the return to the Pleroma. <<

I think the Gnostic interpretation is probably closer to the truth-- The programs being AEons, with most of them seeming to be paired-- for example- The Oracle and The Architect. In fact, the Oracle and The Architecht are fairly literal analogues of Sophia(wisdom) and The Demiurge-- those that were have supposed to have created the physical world in many Gnostic myths.

Cast in this light, Neo is analogous to Jesus, except in this case he is not the savior of humans, he's the savior of the machines as well.

I wish I knew more about Buddhism, but I think that at different points in the series, he has embodied different aspects of the Buddha. In the second movie, he was a Buddha who had achieved enlightenment, but who intentionally remained so as to enlighten others. In the third, he becomes the cosmic buddha, the one who is in all worlds simultaneously-- the matrix, the real world and the spiritual world (the source). Finally at the end, he sacrifices himself to save the world and returns entirely to the source.

Is mythology, I think the series works beautifully. As a film, I'm not entirely sure.

I still need to think more about Seraph, Smith and the Merovingian's role in the movie and what they represent. I may post more on that later.

[empath]

Ah, forgot that seraph was golden-- that represented The Source, so he is another AEon--- directly from the Source-- and he's inhabiting the matrix.

In Christianity-- Seraphim are the highest order of angels-- the praise the glory of God, and have 6 wings. However, in Gnosticism, the god of the Old Testement is actually the demiurge, not the true god (The Source).

If Seraphim had been a servent of the demiurge (the Architect), and he became enlightened (contacted the source), the architect would have banished him. They called him "wingless"-- so Seraph is a fallen angel.
------------------------------------
Here's a question-- if The Source is the ultimate reality, do the machines know it, and if they do know it, do they care? After all, to a machine (an AI- an Artificial Intelligence) EVERYTHING is artificial, including themselves.. would a simulated intelligence even understand the concept of a 'real' world?

[empath]

Notes on other characters:

Morpheus-- He didn't have much to do in this movie, because his role has already been fulfilled. He's The Herald-- the John the Baptist character. He prepares the world for the savior, but he cannot be the savior.

Trinity -- There is a lot of symbolism to her character-- the name is likely a reference to the triple goddess, but that doesn't play out in the series (she would have had to have been a mother at some point, and she wasn't) In terms of 'story' she's the love interest, in terms of mythology, she could perhaps be a mary magdelene type, but here the jesus/buddha parallel breaks down, because both of them were chaste. They brought "spiritual" love to humanity, not physical love.

The Kid-- I'm not sure what his role is-- he achieved a kind of enlightment through death-- i really don't know what he represents, if anything, personally, I think he was kind of a wasted character.

Smith- He is Neo's opposite. His character is complex, and doesn't neatly map onto any mythological antecedent that I can think of right now. Not Satan, certainly. He represents annihilation. He's a destroyer, but not the kind that leads to change, but to entropy. At the heat death of the universe, Smith will be there, laughing.

[empath]

after reading some previous posts:

re: freeing the humans-- not everyone would WANT to be freed. Not everyone is READY to be freed.

It's the same as Buddha and Jesus. They bring the message, but not everyone listens or is ready for it.

Personally, _I'm_ not ready to be freed. WTF is so great about Zion? And even if I WAS freed, I'd spend most of my time in the Matrix, because flying is pretty fucking cool.

[Article One]

Originally posted by empath

Personally, _I'm_ not ready to be freed. WTF is so great about Zion? And even if I WAS freed, I'd spend most of my time in the Matrix, because flying is pretty fucking cool.



you know, this is what has REALLY been my problem right from the very start... why the hell would i WANT to be freed?

and think about this...the machines stopped the war cuz Neo did what he did. so now, millions upon millions of people are suddenly going to find out that their lives have been one big lie. on top of it, what do they wake up to? a life of living underground in caves and steel coffins, never ever seeing daylight again, and eating some snotty looking paste 3 times a day.

um, no thanks. this is why seifer, though an asshole for betraying friends, had a point. "Ignorance is bliss", and in this case i agree with him. If you dont know the difference, what the HELL IS THE DIFFERENCE???!!

in conclusion, if we are in the matrix right this very second and someone out there can read this, you can take your red pill and shove it directly up your unplugged ass.

[empath]

ci·pher also cy·pher ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sfr)
n.

1. The mathematical symbol (0) denoting absence of quantity; zero.
2. An Arabic numeral or figure; a number.
3. One having no influence or value; a nonentity.

[bboyneko]

The matrix movies have insinuated tho, that the world within the "matrix" dosent FEEL right...it feels like a dream..they arent fully comfortable..as Morpheus put it "llike a splinter in your mind"

Most would rather live a real life than a fake one

[empath]

Oh, i disagree. Most people would rather live the life they have... or else why haven't christians committed mass suicide over and over again?

It's a central tenet of the religion that this life means nothing, and the 'true' life is what lies beyond.

Same with Islam. The vast majority of muslims don't blow themselves up with car bombs..

Same with Buddhism and Hinduism... most Buddhists and Hindus just live their life here and now, and really try to achieve nirvana.

[empath]

And aside from that, most people check into alternate realities all the time-- raves, amusement parks, videogames, books, movies, etc... People like 'escape'

[bboyneko]

Originally posted by empath
or else why haven't christians committed mass suicide over and over again?

.

Because suicide robs them of their divine reward..you cant leave town until Hank tells you to :D

[Shawn_E]

Originally posted by empath
after reading some previous posts:

re: freeing the humans-- not everyone would WANT to be freed. Not everyone is READY to be freed.

It's the same as Buddha and Jesus. They bring the message, but not everyone listens or is ready for it.

Personally, _I'm_ not ready to be freed. WTF is so great about Zion? And even if I WAS freed, I'd spend most of my time in the Matrix, because flying is pretty fucking cool.

Than that would make you apart of the system, and we would have to kill you.

[Shawn_E]

Originally posted by empath
ci·pher also cy·pher ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sfr)
n.

1. The mathematical symbol (0) denoting absence of quantity; zero.
2. An Arabic numeral or figure; a number.
3. One having no influence or value; a nonentity.

Also see traitor

[Shawn_E]

Originally posted by bboyneko
The matrix movies have insinuated tho, that the world within the &quot;matrix&quot; dosent FEEL right...it feels like a dream..they arent fully comfortable..as Morpheus put it &quot;llike a splinter in your mind&quot;

Most would rather live a real life than a fake one

I have the same splinter in my mind, every since I can remember, it's only mere concindence that these movies come out and portray what I've been thinking all along, where is the truth in the reality we live?

If at night when we sleep we cannot tell that we are sleep but think we are awake in a false reality, what makes this one any different? If I had to chose I would chose the truth. Give me my bowl of snott please.

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Article One
more :velvet: and :buttsex:??

is that what you mean by magic?? i know you are disappointed you didnt get to see keanu's ass again.

thank god for DVD freeze frame. :lessthanthree:

[bkidz]

Doesn't Keanu show his ass in Point Break. . . . :shrug:

[Gizmo]

exactly. Plus you get a junk shot when he gets spit out of his cocoon.

By the way, a cipher, when used as a noun, denotes a person who deciphers code, aka the operator of the matrix. I don't think that particular element needs to be that in-depth, but then again, I enjoy overanalyzing, so who am I to say?


http://www.movieforum.com/movies/titles/muchadoaboutnothing/images/keanusm.jpg

"If you dare not trust that you see, confess not
that you know: if you will follow me, I will show
you enough; and when you have seen more and heard
more, proceed accordingly. Oh, and I'm The One... by the way."

[Gizmo]

"O plague right well prevented! so will you say when
you have seen the sequel."

[bkidz]

:shrug::confused:

[empath]

Originally posted by Gizmo
By the way, a cipher, when used as a noun, denotes a person who deciphers code, aka the operator of the matrix. I

Not that I'm arguing with you, but do you have a reference for that? I've never seen it used that way-- I've always seen cipher (when describing people) used to describe a nobody.

[Gizmo]

looking it up online, yes, cipher means nothing or a nobody, but I did hear it used as a person who deciphers... I came across it while reading a book and I don't remember the title.

But I guess you're right in this instance, since I don't have a reference.

this is the closest I could get to my definition on dictionary.reference.com:

cipher

cipher

\Ci"pher\, n. [OF. cifre zero, F. Chiffre figure (cf. Sp. cifra, LL. cifra), fr. Ar. [,c]ifrun, [,c]afrun, empty, cipher, zero, fr. [,c]afira to be empty. Cf. Zero.] 1. (Arith.) A character [0] which, standing by itself, expresses nothing, but when placed at the right hand of a whole number, increases its value tenfold.

2. One who, or that which, has no weight or influence.

Here he was a mere cipher. --W. Irving.

3. A character in general, as a figure or letter. [Obs.]

This wisdom began to be written in ciphers and characters and letters bearing the forms of creatures. --Sir W. Raleigh.

4. A combination or interweaving of letters, as the initials of a name; a device; a monogram; as, a painter's cipher, an engraver's cipher, etc. The cut represents the initials N. W.

5. A private alphabet, system of characters, or other mode of writing, contrived for the safe transmission of secrets; also, a writing in such characters.

His father . . . engaged him when he was very young to write all his letters to England in cipher. --Bp. Burnet.

but it's not the first definition.... oh well.

[Gizmo]

On the same site:

cipher

\Ci"pher\, v. t. 1. To write in occult characters.

His notes he ciphered with Greek characters. --Hayward.

2. To get by ciphering; as, to cipher out the answer.

3. To decipher. [Obs.] --Shak.

4. To designate by characters. [Obs.] --Shak.


Which I guess is closer to my original tenant... goddamn Sudafed.

[maynard]

I was greatly disappointed. And that is all I will say on this matter.

[empath]

Must Read review of the Matrix - Revolutions:

http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/031109matrix.htm

Ken Mondschein

"First Chaos came, and then broad-bosomed Earth,
The everlasting seat of all that is,
And Love."
—Hesiod

Due to some oversight on the part of Warner Brothers, I had to wait until the Friday after Revolutions' Wednesday opening (and the Tuesday press screening) to see the last chapter of the Matrix trilogy. No matter: I took Friday-night kickboxing class at the dojo, crammed a bite to eat into my gulliver, and met my friend Gwinny at the Union Square movie theater for the 9:45 show. There's no better place to see an action blockbuster than surrounded by a bunch of sardonic NYU film students, and no better state of mind to see it in than just after having had some guy's knee rammed repeatedly into your solar plexus.

Like its predecessors, Matrix Revolutions references a slew of canonical texts. Unfortunately, in addition to Platonic philosophy and Scholastic theology, these texts also included World War II movies, J.R.R. Tolkien, Aliens, Return of the Jedi, "Dragonball Z," and the bonus-round stage of Galaxian. There was a bit less kung fu in this one, the pace was quicker, and large portions of the special-effects budget was spent on constructing technological toys that would make good action figures. This means that the movie might seem more intellectually vapid than its predecessors, but it wasn't—it just decided not to bore everyone by showing the action rather than talking about it. Though it's a bit simpler than the original Matrix and Reloaded, the Brothers W still managed to get a fair bit of important ideas in. In brief, Revolutions' metaphysical themes can be summed by two very important quotes: "Love is just a word," and "Because I choose to."

Oh, yeah: This is totally filled with spoilers, so consider yourself warned.

"Love is just a word."

When the movie opens, Neo is in Limbo, sharing an immaculately clean train platform with a lovely South Asian family who are en route to bring their daughter, Sati ("righteousness", to the Oracle. The product of two programs, Sati serves no useful purpose, and so she is queued for deletion, but her parents, themselves daemons from the false computer world, don't wish their beloved daughter to be consigned to the great recycling bin in the sky, so they're taking her to where she'll be safe. But their actions are a bit perplexing to our hero.

"You… love?" Keanu asks Papa Program, furrowing his brow ever so slightly.

"Love is just a word," he replies.

Yup. "Love," like "righteousness," or for that matter, "yellow" is just a word—but it's also more than that. Plato posited that these concepts—or Ideas—have actual existence and form, albeit in some transcendent form that we, being shackled in our material bodies, cannot experience directly. However, we can know them indirectly—an action is good, or a flower is yellow. These concepts passed into Christian theology when Augustine, writing in the fourth century, located these Ideas in the mind of God.

In the Middle Ages, this position—called "Realism"—was challenged by another called "Nominalism." Whereas Realists held that there was some essence, some "quiddity" ("thing-ness" that makes something what it is—say, that makes a chair a chair or an elephant an elephant—Nominalists held that these were just words. After all, at what point is a chair no longer a chair? It can't be mere functionality—you can sit on a desk, too, while it's possible for some modern artist to create a chair that looks like a chair, but that is impossible to sit on. Likewise, at what point in genetic manipulation is an elephant no longer an elephant? At its most radical, Nominalism holds that there is no essential essence to anything, and things are only what we call them by convention, and that the words we give things do not match what they may actually be. Reality is fundamentally unknowable and, by extension, meaningless.

This belief has theological implications, as well: Is there such a thing as Justice? Good? And, if not—never mind what this says for the possibility of personal transcendence—what was the point in striving for an unknowable ideal? Is the struggle to make the world a better place even worth the effort?

In many ways, the Nominalist vs. Realist debate parallels the New Linguistics and postmodernism. Writers such as Derrida hold that language is just a series of signs not necessarily linked to the reality of the world. Baudrillard (whose work I'm more familiar with, and whose book Simulacra and Simulation makes a cameo in the first Matrix movie) writes that our society has made a fundamental break with anything that's real. When Baudrillard writes that the first Gulf War didn't really happen, he doesn't mean that people didn't really die in the Middle East and my friend Tony didn't get into a firefight with some Iraqis, but rather that for most of us, our perception of the event, how we experience it in our own universes, is entirely a media construct. We live in a world devoid of any real meaning.

What the Wachowskis seem to be doing here is taking this thesis—that we can know truth and use it to give meaning to our existence—and its antithesis and arriving at a synthesis (shades of Hegel). Our names for things may be just words—but the things they signify really exist regardless of our ability to describe them. It's an important point, because without it, the rest of the events in the movie don't make much sense.

And so on with the show.

Passion and Warfare

Much has been made of the fact that the Merovingian and his wife's breasts have fairly limited screen time in this installment. There are two reasons for this: One is that Monica Bellucci may be one of the most beautiful women in the world, but she smokes like a chimney and in the wrong lighting—i.e., not in a BDSM club—it really shows. The other reason is, as I pointed out last time, the Merovingian is a signpost, not a destination. He's one of the d(a)emons in Hell, not the Devil himself. In this case, he's just there bringing Neo back from the purgatory where he learned his important lesson about love and back to the "real world"—and finally ending his Dante-esque journey through Hell.

Before he goes, however, he has to visit the Oracle, the Matrix's resident incarnation of the goddess Sophia ("Wisdom", to get the 411 on what's up and refuse another red pill. (Note, however, that the song playing is Duke Ellington's "Beginning to See the Light." Mary Alice's Oracle is as good as can be expected as she helps Neo figure out exactly what he has to do. If Reloaded was a journey into the underworld, a la Dante's Inferno, then Revolutions is both the Battle of Armageddon and the story of Christ's Passion. No, it doesn't exactly follow either narrative, but then, the story's already bounced through half a dozen myths.

Splitting the cast into two groups, besides reminding everyone of The Lord of the Rings, serves a symbolic purpose, as well. On the one hand are Morpheus, Niobe, and the defenders of Zion, representing Neo's disciples in the material world. On the other hand are the characters who represent metaphysical principles: Neo and Trinity, who set off towards highest reality, the machine citadel that controls all life on Earth.

Neo's blinding by Bane is significant, and not only because his physical pain evokes Christ's passion (from the Latin passio, or "suffering". Blindness, and vision, have special meanings in this movie—the Merovingian asks Trinity for the Oracle's eyes, and, later, Smith literally takes them (along with the rest of her body) when he assimilates her. (Note that he calls her "Mom"—with the Architect, she's the co-creator of the Matrix universe.) Though in Hebrew culture, the blind weren't especially blessed—in fact, anyone with a defect in their sight wasn't allowed into the Temple (Leviticus 21:20)—the Greeks saw otherwise. The poet Homer is widely depicted as blind, and, more significantly, the seer Tiresias was also visually challenged. (Tiresias, history's first transsexual, had spent seven years magically transformed into a woman. When Zeus and Hera had a dispute over whether men or women get more pleasure out of sex, they naturally asked him. Tiresias responded that out of ten parts of pleasure, women get nine. Angered, Zeus struck him blind, but Hera, to compensate, granted him the gift of prophecy. It would have been better if he had asked for multiple orgasms.)

Similarly, blinded to the sometimes-false perceptions of his "real" eyes, Neo can now "see" the computer world more clearly with his mind. We've now reached a higher plane of reality than the Matrix or Zion: he's journeyed to the center of power, the light that casts all the shadows. It's like he's walked the Pattern and he's in the middle of Zelazny's Amber. Just like St. Paul, he was struck blind, but now he sees—albeit a bit differently. He can only see true reality—the power that controls the world.

Neo and Trinity in fact reach the light quite literally: Evading the defenders of the machine citadel, they burst up above the clouds, and, in a glorious apotheosis, Trinity sees sunlight, actual sunlight—the first person to do so in hundreds of years. And then they crash back to earth, and Trinity is transfixed (wonderfully foreshadowed in the shot of Keanu Reeves in the pilot's seat with the spiky pylons in the background).

Obviously, Trinity could not go on with Neo. Her death is both a plot point and theologically necessary: To fulfill the Christ parallel, Neo himself has to die at the end, and how is he going to do that with her around to save his ass? Also, if Trinity represents divine love, he has to go to the unholy place without her. ("Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus asks on the cross in Matthew 27:46.) Things just happens like that in these extended metaphors: Dante couldn't hang around with Beatrice and Petrarch didn't have a happy ending with Laura, either. So, Trinity goes (symbolically) back to heaven, and Neo goes on without her.

(Whether due to the tension of what was obviously intended as an incredibly sad moment, or whether because of the shock of seeing Keanu Reeves actually display emotion, the NYU film students all chose this moment to crack up laughing. Personally, I don't think he was acting. His ex-girlfriend Jennifer Syme, who had delivered their first child stillborn in 1999, died in a car crash in 2001. The man has had enough sadness in his life.)

"Because I choose to."

"Why get up, Mr. Anderson? Why keep fighting? Peace? Love? Illusions. Constructs as artificial as the Matrix itself," Elrond sneers, vamping as good as he ever did in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

Neo's answer, of course, is because he chooses to. His offering himself for cyber-crucifixion by the giant floating Wizard of Oz head/Goatse man/Eye of Sauron-thing in the machine fortress is a matter of choice; his choosing to fight Smith was a choice; his allowing himself to be assimilated by Smith was a choice. And, as I mentioned in my exegesis of the last movie, Neo, being human, has that which the machines cannot fathom, nor control: Free will. Previously, Neo chose not to re-enter the Core because of his love for Trinity (who, as her name implies, represents the divine, and divine love for all humanity). Here, he chooses to keep fighting, even though it is pointless. What keeps him going is clearly not erotic love for Trinity (since she's dead), but agape, love for all humanity.

Smith, on the other hand, is the Antichrist, Neo's equal and opposite. He has brought on Armageddon: The Matrix, the false world, is now entirely his. It is a gray, rainy universe of white men in suits, a corporate fantasy-world of unending conformity. In its sterile, terrifying monotony, it is stripped of joy, meaning, and life. There is no diversity, no choice. Because Smith has no true free will, he can't fathom it in others. Everything, for him, is predestined—he's foreseen it. And that is his greatest weakness. Neo defeats him not with kung fu, but with his will. Peace, love, and all that jazz might well not be real at all, but he chooses to keep fighting for them, anyway. It's not a rational choice, but in choosing it, he makes them real—and in so doing negates Smith's nihilism.

Alas, just as Trinity couldn't have survived the final encounter, neither could Neo. (What kind of life could they have, anyway? They're archetypes, not characters. What would they do, raise a bunch of clichés?) So, Christ-like, Neo returns to the Core—ascending to computer heaven, if you will—as was originally intended, but, as the Oracle says, he'll be back one day.

In the final scene of the movie, dialogue between the Architect and the Oracle (that is, the creator-goddess Sophia), it is revealed that Neo has brought free will to everyone in the Matrix. It's like Christianity: Those who want out of the illusion, who choose to believe in peace, love, and all that, can depart the false world. But with choice comes responsibility: We have to make up our own minds as to what our destinies will be, and we have to act on it. If we decide that the false world of Agent Smiths is not for us, and that love, justice, righteousness, etc., are real, then they are real. It's not an ending worthy of a Schwarzenegger movie, but it's far more profound.

Me, I personally preferred the end of Michael Moorcock's Corum series, where the gods are all killed so mankind can decide its own fate. Which makes me wonder when someone will make a movie out of Elric of Melniboné.

Now THAT would be worth deconstructing.

[empath]

I think, to really vibe on matrix, you have to approach it not as a narrative/dramatic work, but as an alchemical/magical work. It's full of hidden signs and symbols that only 'initiates' can really understand.

It's a doorway to a gnostic viewpoint on the world, much like the Invisibles was as a comic book. I really love it, entirely at that level. So much so that I can't even approach it on a story level. I don't really care about the characters very much as people, honestly, or the story on it's own. But I don't think that makes the movie a failure. It works on the level that it was meant to, and if you don't like it, I guess it wasn't for you.

But I don't really think it was a bad movie, just unlike anything else that had ever been done.

A guarantee people will still be talking about it in 100 or 200 years. I can't think of very many other movies that people would be talking about.

[velvetgoldmire]

I loved the movie and the trilogy as a whole. I could nitpick and pick out little problems here and there, but it told its story and it told it well. I thought that it was really intense, and it visually portrayed the characters having to fight through hell and back better than almost any movie out there.

Plus, it was worth my money for the most epic shot I've ever seen in a movie. Smith in the air, looking down on a falling Neo, and the lightening crashes. That was slick.

[spiggums]

Originally posted by empath
I think, to really vibe on matrix, you have to approach it not as a narrative/dramatic work, but as an alchemical/magical work. It's full of hidden signs and symbols that only 'initiates' can really understand.

It's a doorway to a gnostic viewpoint on the world...

I think this would be a fair assessment if they were offering a fresh philisophical perspective, but from what I gathered (and maybe I've missed something, I don't pretend to know everything) what they've offered us is more a hodgepodge of old religions and philosophies rolled into one complete package.

And even if it was an original perspective they were offering, they still have to "follow the rules" of the medium they chose to deliver their message... And that's where I had issues with the series (as I've laid out in another thread)

[spiggums]

Originally posted by spiggums

And even if it was an original perspective they were offering, they still have to &quot;follow the rules&quot; of the medium they chose to deliver their message... And that's where I had issues with the series (as I've laid out in another thread)

I should clarify something here:

Art is all about breaking the rules. I appreciate that, so maybe I'm describing this in the wrong way when I say "breaking the rules"...
But there are basic precepts involved with storytelling in order for your story to be considered viable by your intended audience. And this is all I'm referring to

[empath]

what they've offered us is more a hodgepodge of old religions and philosophies rolled into one complete package.

Did Jesus say anything that was really 'new'? How about Buddha?

Or did they just take what philosopher had been saying before them and repackage it for a new audience?

[spiggums]

Originally posted by empath


Did Jesus say anything that was really 'new'? How about Buddha?

Or did they just take what philosopher had been saying before them and repackage it for a new audience?

Valid point... but still, I contend that in order to do that you have to work within the boundaries of your medium.

And that's nothing more really than a difference of opinions...

[bboyneko]

Originally posted by velvetgoldmire
Plus, it was worth my money for the most epic shot I've ever seen in a movie. Smith in the air, looking down on a falling Neo, and the lightening crashes. That was slick.

That is probably THE MOST cliche thing you can do in a movie..i.e, 'It was a dark and stormy night" using a storm or lightning to accenuate evil or drama is so over-played it's ridiculous.

[velvetgoldmire]

It was something that could have gone so wrong, but the way it was done, it went oh so right. That was a masterful shot.

[bboyneko]

they even had agent smith cackle like a madman..i pretty sure he rubbed his hands together with glee. lord. Only thing missing was a white lab coat.

[velvetgoldmire]

Yup. I loved it. Although I think you're thinking of the cackling when he transforms the Oracle.

Along those same lines, I think the only thing The Architect was missing was a white cat to stroke.

Also.. I loved how at the end The Architect and The Oracle were like an old devorced couple.


I just watched the first one over the weekend... by far the best one of the trilogy... and I noticed a nice hint at The Architect.

[Ragin Bajin]

After talking to some more people about this movie.. I'm still confused as shit as to what is the real real real world and what is fake..

Oh well. This is Post 150.. So I'm pretty happy about that.