Effeminate Men

[beatgeek]

Been thinking about this recently...

What do you think about married men who stay home to take care of the kids while their wives work?

What do you think about men who follow "feminine" career paths, like being a nurse, a seamstress, or a preschool teacher?

Are gender roles limiting, or are they a necessary thread of the fabric of society?

What do you think of men who are sensitive, compassionate, and not very aggressive? How about women who are ambitious, independent, and less in touch with emotions?

Do you think gender identity is determined by biology, environment, or both?

[Alexis]

Originally posted by beatgeek

How about women who are ambitious, independent, and less in touch with emotions?

Do you think gender identity is determined by biology, environment, or both?

I put myself in the ambitious, independant, and clueless on emotions category, and I believe it has a lot to do with both biology AND enviornment. It's in both my nature and the way that I was brought up. I know people who are other good examples of this as well.

:not agaaain:

[Gizmo]

eh. People should just be themselves. :gotme:

[tigermomma]

I was actually just talking to my friend about this last night.

In the 70's a set of male twins was born in Canada (I think). During circumcision there was an accident with one of the boys. The parents decided to change "he" into a "she" so the child could have a somewhat normal life instead of having "inadequate" equipment.

Growing up the child had identity issues. Playing with boys, liking boy toys, having crushes on girls. Yet "she" was raised strictly as a female. At 18 she became suicidal and her parents told her everything that had happened. Crystal clarity ensued and she got another sex change back to her "true" self.

Bad thing was the psychiatrist that headed her case printed hundreds of magazine articles and was heralded as causing a turning point in the nature v. nurture debate. He lied. The bastid.

Anyway, when I had my daughter (my son was first) she NATURALLY gravitated towards the girl toys. She had no interaction with other kids her age besides Kevin, and most of the toys I had for her were his old ones. Yet, she still preferred the feminine toys.

What makes us true women and men is completely nature. What makes us strong, weak, nice, mean....effeminate, masculine...those things are given to us from the nurture aspect of it and the environment in which we are raised.

Just my opinion though.

[DNAgirl]

I think you should do whatever fits. Meaning if you are a male and want to be a nurse you should go for it.

On the other hand, if he wanted to stay home with the kids for the first couple years I'd probably be pissed because that would be what I'd want to do. But thats just me, plus I wouldn't be able to feed the family with my pay ever.

But, I think it all depends on the situation.

[Article One]

Originally posted by beatgeek
Been thinking about this recently...

What do you think about married men who stay home to take care of the kids while their wives work?




dude, if i met and fell in love with a woman who said, "i make MORE than enough for our family to live very comfortably. stay home and watch the kids and the house."

you bet your ass id do it. why the hell not? youd get to spend alot of time with your children. being a house dad would be cool. i mean really, who wants to WORK?????

[tigermomma]

From experience,

Being a stay at home parent is a million times more difficult then working. When I started saying I had to go "potty" when I was with my adult friends...uhm...yeah.

My credo is now "quality time" vs "quantity time"

But I may be in the minority in my opinion on this.

You know how they say that if you always spend time with a S.O. that the relationship will feel cramped? Thats the way your relationship with your children is as well.

[judson]

there are a whole lot of questions here, but i just address one. i think gender roles are extremely limiting and cause people to conform without identifying who they are and what they are really about. [that's a long sentence]. gender roles also stifle individuality and the open exchange of ideas.

out,
judson

[Article One]

"So what do you do Greg?"

"Im a nurse."

[laughter].."Thats a good one...haha...no seriously...what do u do?"

"...I'm...a nurse."

[DNAgirl]

Is that from Scrubs?

[velvetgoldmire]

Meet the Parents

[Ragin Bajin]

Originally posted by DNAgirl
Is that from Scrubs?

Nope, it's from Meet the Parents with Ben Stiller and Robert Deniro..

[El Magnifico]

Originally posted by Article One



dude, if i met and fell in love with a woman who said, "i make MORE than enough for our family to live very comfortably. stay home and watch the kids and the house."

you bet your ass id do it. why the hell not? youd get to spend alot of time with your children. being a house dad would be cool. i mean really, who wants to WORK?????


:werd: Though, raising kids is hard work, it would definitely be more rewarding than working for "the man."

[uberclkgtr]

what does gender role-defined work have to do with being effeminate? further, how is "sensitive, compassionate, and not very aggressive" effeminate? poor choice of wording i think. :shrug:

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by Article One



dude, if i met and fell in love with a woman who said, "i make MORE than enough for our family to live very comfortably. stay home and watch the kids and the house."

you bet your ass id do it. why the hell not? youd get to spend alot of time with your children. being a house dad would be cool. i mean really, who wants to WORK?????

Raising children and taking care of a house isn't work? I'll take you on any day. I don't get an hour lunch break, no 15 minute breaks. I pee with a baby crawling all over me. It's 24/7, no vacations, no sick days. I love my baby more than anything, but don't be fooled, it's real work. Hopefully she will be a genius and world class dancer and I can take the credit. :raveon:

[terpsichorean]

I think he means, judging by the typically assigned gender roles, and characteristics, James.

I believe that it is a combination of nature and nutrure. As we evolve as a society and as it becomes necessary for `women to take on what were traditionally "masculine" roles, the opposite effect must also take place with men and "effiminate" roles.

It is now acceptable, and for many, expected, for women to take on roles such as soldiers, law enforcement, consrtuction workers, executives. No one questions this, execpt maybe the neaderthals who believe that women are overstepping their bounderies by having these occupations. So why is it such an issue when men do the same, and work as nurses, kindergarten teachers, guidance counselors, socialogists, etc.? I'll tell you why, beacuse this is still a male oriented society, where the 'norm' is viewed as how a typical male would view it. The perceptions of these roles are shaped by the men who are still in power and control the status quo. It will not be until women are of equal stature in this country, that both genders will be truly respected for crossing invisible gender lines.

[terpsichorean]

Also, scientific study has shown that some females are born with abnormal levels of testosterone, and that some males are born with abnormal levels of estrogen. Therefore, showing some predispostion for 'atheletic girls' and 'effeminate boys'. But, there really is no proven genetic correlation between girl gravitating towards effeminate nature, and boys towards masculine nature.

I believe that the tradtional gender roles are just that-- tradition. That over centuries, roles have been defined by our society, and not by our natural instincts. Think of it like this: women were also predators in our pre-homosapien days. Female are still the predators in the wild kingdom. It is only in our 'advanced' society that gender roles have been established-- save for the mother typically being the primary caregiver (as she logically should be, she carried the kid).

[Article One]

Originally posted by Steel Magnolia


Raising children and taking care of a house isn't work? I'll take you on any day. I don't get an hour lunch break, no 15 minute breaks. I pee with a baby crawling all over me. It's 24/7, no vacations, no sick days. I love my baby more than anything, but don't be fooled, it's real work. Hopefully she will be a genius and world class dancer and I can take the credit. :raveon:


dude, i didnt say it was easier. i said i would prefer it. there is a difference.


which work, at the end of the day, would be more satisfying? helping people out whom you only care for b/c they pay you? or helping the only people in your life whom you care for unconditionally?

[maynard]

Screw gender roles. If there's a relationship where the man takes care of the kids when the woman works, so be it. That's a decision they have made as a couple, and IMO people should be able to do whatever they wish, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else...

:spliff:

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by Article One



dude, i didnt say it was easier. i said i would prefer it. there is a difference.


which work, at the end of the day, would be more satisfying? helping people out whom you only care for b/c they pay you? or helping the only people in your life whom you care for unconditionally?

It is definitely more rewarding. I just don't think a lot of people understand how exhausting it is. I work from home and take care of our baby so maybe I am more tired than some. Babies are the best!!!!!! I hope you get the opportunity to stay home with your future kids if you can. Stay at home parents get no respect. Be prepared for that too. I used to think stay at home parents had it easy. Heh.

[Article One]

i like the little statement you're making there dan with your :spliff:

:haha:

[terpsichorean]

Personally, I could never be a stay-at-home mother. Yes, it is a full-time job, and requires tons of work, but I believe in balancing that work with my husband, and hired caregivers. For starters, children typically socialize better when they are in daycare from an early age. I don't want my kid to be clingy, or feel isolated from others.

Second, I worked too hard for my education to not use it. I am accustomed being in a position of authority and for being responsible for not only those whom I love, but people whose lives depend on my decisions. I couldn't give that up to stay at home; I'd lose my mind.

But I commend those who do. I believe that people need to do what best suits their needs and makes them happiest. But I would not be happy at all as a stay-at-home mom.

[Article One]

Originally posted by Steel Magnolia


It is definitely more rewarding. I just don't think a lot of people understand how exhausting it is. I work from home and take care of our baby so maybe I am more tired than some. Babies are the best!!!!!! I hope you get the opportunity to stay home with your future kids if you can. Stay at home parents get no respect. Be prepared for that too. I used to think stay at home parents had it easy. Heh.

right, well, just for the record, i wasnt being like that at all. im sure i have no idea how hard it is, but id still rather do that than work some 9-5 sheep job.

[Gizmo]

I agree with you Missy. Gloria Stienem actually said "I have yet to hear a man ask for advice on how to balance career and family.”

Yes, women have proven themselves capable of doing what men do, but is is cruicial to understand the importance of men realizing they can, and should, do what women do. We cannot go on doing two jobs, and we should strive to create a society in which "female" work (childcare, interpersonal relations, communication) is not considered less than "male" work (science, math, etc). Seeing as how you need more experience and training to be a cigar roller than a childcare worker in this country, it is apparant that the value placed on "female" work is very low...

[maynard]

Originally posted by Article One
i like the little statement you're making there dan with your :spliff:

:haha:

Yeah, I thought that'd be a nice touch.

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by Article One


right, well, just for the record, i wasnt being like that at all. im sure i have no idea how hard it is, but id still rather do that than work some 9-5 sheep job.

I love my paying job too. Right now my baby comes first but I can't wait until I can devote more time to my career. It's very rewarding and pays well. I get to be my own boss too.

Maybe you are in the wrong job?

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by Gizmo
I agree with you Missy. Gloria Stienem actually said "I have yet to hear a man ask for advice on how to balance career and family.”

Yes, women have proven themselves capable of doing what men do, but is is cruicial to realize the importance of men realizing they can, and should, do what women do. We cannot go on doing two jobs, and we should strive to create a society in which "female" work (childcare, interpersonal relations, communication) is not considered less than "male" work (science, math, etc). Seeing as how you need more experience and training to be a cigar roller than a childcare worker in this country, it is apparant that the value placed on "female" work is very low...


Once again :werd: to the Gizmo.

[terpsichorean]

Of course the value on "female" roles is low in this country, Cort...look at the education budget (a typically femal profession). Pitiful.

[Article One]

hahaha...no, im just throwing ideas out there. they change from minute to minute. :shrug:

i probably couldnt spend my life as a house dad, for some of the reasons missy stated.

[terpsichorean]

Originally posted by Steel Magnolia


I love my paying job too. Right now my baby comes first but I can't wait until I can devote more time to my career. It's very rewarding and pays well. I get to be my own boss too.

Maybe you are in the wrong job?

Okay, what if you had my job (Army)? Would you have opted to resign your commission and be a stay-at-home mom then? Does it mean that much to you to be with your child, or are you simply doing it because you're one of the few lucky enough to have that option? Not putting you in the hot seat, just curious.

[Gizmo]

exactly! I’m reading this book called “The Difference: Growing Up Female in America,” and I'm really enjoying it, and I'm learning so much from it. It doesn’t preach or male-bash, and offers a lot of insight on what’s happening with our social structure now (it was written 10 years ago) that is still very accurate today. It explains in detail why so many girls fail at math, the inner workings of the educational system, etc.

And if you don't read it, it's quite obvious that the author wants you walk away with the knowledge that you MUST send your daughters to all-girl schools. She really beats that point into the ground. :D

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by Article One
hahaha...no, im just throwing ideas out there. they change from minute to minute. :shrug:

i probably couldnt spend my life as a house dad, for some of the reasons missy stated.

The sad part is that it's not your whole life, just a few short wonderful years. That's why I chose to stay at home with her. It just doesn't last long.

And Missy is right, they do need social interaction with lot's of different people and kids.

I don't think daycare is a bad thing, but I want my baby to be with me for the most part. Finding part-time care is difficult.

[DNAgirl]

Thank god I was born naturally curious and analytical. Thank god for science and math. :woot:

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by terpsichorean


Okay, what if you had my job (Army)? Would you have opted to resign your commission and be a stay-at-home mom then? Does it mean that much to you to be with your child, or are you simply doing it because you're one of the few lucky enough to have that option? Not putting you in the hot seat, just curious.

I would probably never have the job you have. It's not me. I'm in sales/real estate which is still a nurturing kind of job. It's hard to say. Some women do resign, some don't. I'm not the active duty type, I'm the military wife type. Unfortunately I'm not as BADASS as you are. Maybe with proper guidance I can be....:delirious: I still want the t-shirt though.

That's a tough one. I think some people change after they have a baby. You can't tell someone what it's like. So, saying that I might have resigned if I had that kind of job. Before I had her I had a sales job that required me to be in an office and I think I would have tried to go part-time. I am lucky to be able to have a flexible (kind of) job. It also creates a lot of stress when someone calls and wants to look at a house in 2 hours and I don't have a sitter. Major panic attack!

[terpsichorean]

Oh, I didn't mean my exact job, but one that wouldn't allow you to work from home. Nevertheless, you made the point. :D

And Cortney, the only thing I disagree with is the all-girl school thing. One of my best friends went to Girls HIgh, while I was down the street at Central. Those girls were getting into fights everyday, had absolutely no insight on how to deal with boys, and overall seemed more challenged for their decision to go there. Both were magnet schools (mine was better :D), but I could definitely tell a Girls High girl from a Central girl, when we would all be on the subway going home afterschool.

True, you gain perspectives that are not taught at co-ed schools, simply because the male perspective and pressure has been eliminated. And perhaps some gain confidence they otherwise would not have had. But me, at an all girls school, would have been a BAD idea. And my daughter, with half my chromosomes, wouldn't be able to appreciate that experience, either.

But again, I must say that I understand the concept. It was the reasoning why I chose to attend a historically black university (Hampton); to gain perspectives that I grew up without being completely immersed in. I am definitely the better for it...even though I don't recommend my path for others. Making a decision to go to an all-anything school is an individual choice.

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by DNAgirl
Thank god I was born naturally curious and analytical. Thank god for science and math. :woot:

How does a non-math person raise a mathmatically inclined daughter? This is one of my many worries....:crying:

[Gizmo]

then you MUST read The Difference. The author is not a "math person" and was shafted from learning math correctly throughout school (this was in the 50s, where girls and math were kept as far apart as possible). She wanted her daughter to have a better experience than she did, which is one of the reasons she started writing the book in the first place.

go read it! I think it can help you. :D

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by Gizmo
then you MUST read The Difference. The author is not a "math person" and was shafted from learning math correctly throughout school (this was in the 50s, where girls and math were kept as far apart as possible). She wanted her daughter to have a better experience than she did, which is one of the reasons she started writing the book in the first place.

go read it! I think it can help you. :D

OK, I'll hunt it down. Thanks!

[the sex molesters]

i have no problems with a guy staying home and watching his kids.... personally, i don't think i would, cuz i kinda hate kids.... but you know, i can't say cuz i have never had any.

[pluryou]

I say if you like doing it, then go for it. :) I dont think there needs to be any gender barriers.

[the sex molesters]

forreal.

[DNAgirl]

Originally posted by Steel Magnolia


How does a non-math person raise a mathmatically inclined daughter? This is one of my many worries....:crying:

Tutors. Besides if your daughter is mathematically inclined she will most likely crave it anyways, she'll tell you.

[Anti-DieselKitty]

Originally posted by Steel Magnolia


How does a non-math person raise a mathmatically inclined daughter? This is one of my many worries....:crying:

This struck me as funny...and reminds me... My half brother is 9, and apparently his teacher can tell when my Dad helps with homework- she even sent a note home requesting that he stop "helping." My Dad is alright at math, but apparently he was telling my little brother, "Oh just skip that, you'll never use it...." Bwahahaha...

Seriously though, no one in my family is great at math, but we all got through it with decent grades. And besides, by the time they are onto hard math- they'd rather die then let their parents help them with homework!

[El Magnifico]

I was short-changed in Math simply because my school system figured since I was AP in everything else, I should be AP in Math as well. Well, wrong answer, fucksticks! :shadyfu:

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by El Magnifico
I was short-changed in Math simply because my school system figured since I was AP in everything else, I should be AP in Math as well. Well, wrong answer, fucksticks! :shadyfu:

I don't feel sorry for you smarty pants.

[El Magnifico]

Pants?:tarvis:

[KytteKat]

ok, i actually have a lot to sya on this subject......as i hav had a somewhat strange background.......i was raised on military bases - where i never felt dominated by boys......and i was raised by an "atheltic" mother and an "effiminate" father......and am myself somewhat of a mix......i belive in EQUALITY not nessesarily in feminism......men and women are equal and every man and woman has thier own strengths and weaknesses......some of those are based on biology (i would say that both me and my mother have a little more testoterone in our systems than the average female)......so as an educator i believe there is something in BOTH nature and nurture.......your biology (PERSONAL biology) as well as how you are treated as a child is how you end up in the end......i believe myself equal to any man......and as a little kid i was smarter than most of them.......i am good at math....love science....but am going to school to be a teacher of the arts because math and science come too easily to me to be able to teach them......

i think that when society really starts judging a person on who they are.....not thier race or gender.....we will really see how gender differences (and yes there are many) REALLY effect things......but in this society - gender differences are not true - as they are more society's view of thier differences.....

and sorry to get on my soapbox.......but as a female artist - i DETEST when someone comes into my studio or goes to a show i am in and takes one look at me (a female) and decides that my work must be about feminism and how as a woman i am OPPRESSED......while i have never felt that my gender stopped me from doing anything that i ever wanted to do (with the exceptions of as a little adolecent running around without a bra on......and in high school having to run x-c with a shirt and bra on.....while the guys got to run around topless.....GRRRRR....) *grin*

ok - my .02 - flame away *runs for cover*

[beatgeek]

Originally posted by uberclkgtr
what does gender role-defined work have to do with being effeminate? further, how is "sensitive, compassionate, and not very aggressive" effeminate? poor choice of wording i think. :shrug:

Originally posted by Gizmo
eh. People should just be themselves.

that's exactly my point. thank you!

[beatgeek]

As for gender roles and behavior... some of the points I would make have already been made... plus I'd like to add (and I think this adds to what Gizmo was saying a few posts ago)
(Disclaimer: when i say "acting like a man/woman", I mean traditionally defined gender role behavior, like TV shows like 'Father Knows Best')
Sure it's OK for women to act like men these days, but in general our society is still not very accepting of men who act like women. They're always accused of being gay, or 'not man enough', as if being a man is the standard everyone should live up to. Acting like a woman is a weakness, a fault. If a woman is criticized for similarities to a man, it's only for her looks, not her behavior (except in extremely sexist social circles). That's what feminism has done to our society. Ironic how feminists reinforced the idea that the masculine archetype is the new standard for women everywhere (in the sense that women should be empowered and no longer be so submissive). That supports the idea that we should all be like men because men are superior. :rolleyes:
We need a post-feminist movement that affirms that acting like a woman is just as respectable no matter what gender you are.
After that, we need a post-gender movement that removes gender identity from words, so that people can act like themselves without fear of being labeled a man or a woman. Or something so that when we hear adjectives like 'submissive', 'sympathetic', 'emotional' etc., we recognize those as a human experience, not as a weakness or indicative of someone's gender identity. I think we will always have masculine and feminine archetypes- we can't expect everyone to be androgynous- but we can come to a world where nobody is criticized for having more estrogen and less testosterone in their blood. This will come easier as people become more accepting of gays and lesbians (i.e. effeminate men won't be insulted as much for "acting gay", as being gay becomes socially acceptable and can't any longer be perceived as worse than being straight)

[Steel Magnolia]

Originally posted by beatgeek
As for gender roles and behavior... some of the points I would make have already been made... plus I'd like to add (and I think this adds to what Gizmo was saying a few posts ago)
(Disclaimer: when i say "acting like a man/woman", I mean traditionally defined gender role behavior, like TV shows like 'Father Knows Best')
Sure it's OK for women to act like men these days, but in general our society is still not very accepting of men who act like women. They're always accused of being gay, or 'not man enough', as if being a man is the standard everyone should live up to. Acting like a woman is a weakness, a fault. If a woman is criticized for similarities to a man, it's only for her looks, not her behavior (except in extremely sexist social circles). That's what feminism has done to our society. Ironic how feminists reinforced the idea that the masculine archetype is the new standard for women everywhere (in the sense that women should be empowered and no longer be so submissive). That supports the idea that we should all be like men because men are superior. :rolleyes:
We need a post-feminist movement that affirms that acting like a woman is just as respectable no matter what gender you are.
After that, we need a post-gender movement that removes gender identity from words, so that people can act like themselves without fear of being labeled a man or a woman. Or something so that when we hear adjectives like 'submissive', 'sympathetic', 'emotional' etc., we recognize those as a human experience, not as a weakness or indicative of someone's gender identity. I think we will always have masculine and feminine archetypes- we can't expect everyone to be androgynous- but we can come to a world where nobody is criticized for having more estrogen and less testosterone in their blood. This will come easier as people become more accepting of gays and lesbians (i.e. effeminate men won't be insulted as much for "acting gay", as being gay becomes socially acceptable and can't any longer be perceived as worse than being straight)

Bravo. :raveon:

[the sex molesters]

yeah i'm just gonna be myself, and i really don't care what other people think about that. i have been made fun of and generally insulted for not "being a man" or whatever, when the fact is i am just being myself, and myself exhibits a few womanly traits, i guess. fuck it. i really don't care.

[beatgeek]

... this is kind of a sensitive issue for me because i'm somewhat effeminate, and i don't identify with men hardly at all- at least not manly men. my testosterone level is way below where it 'should' be, and my estrogen and progesterone levels are above where they 'should' be, says my doctor. so they give me this stuff that increases my testosterone level, and after a few weeks i said fuck this, i don't feel like myself anymore. testosterone does change your personality (and your sex drive)- so i think biology is a large factor in why men act like men, and why women act like women. but of course not everyone's biology is the same. that's why i don't act like a man (and why only bi chicks and gay men are attracted to me, but that's neither here nor there).
i guess all i'm saying is- i think it's amazing how much influence hormones have on our personalities. so i think all hormones, all personalities, should get equal respect.

[the sex molesters]

i hear ya on the only bi chicks and gay men thing.... pfffft. for ONCE, just for ONCE i'd like to date a completely straight girl!!! hehe.... well i think i have once or twice... but you never know! but my experience has been as a bisexual, only bisexuals really understand me and know how to deal with me.....

[DJ MELO]

Unless you are married to a really rich girl, get a job!!!!

[beatgeek]

Do you think women can bring in the dough just as well as men can?

[the sex molesters]

jobs are teh suck. heh. (i am possibly about to start one.....)

[the sex molesters]

i know a girl who supported her boyfriend for like 4 months.... of course he supported her for the 4 months prior to that.... i dunno. honestly if i'm in love with someone and they tell me to get a job, i'll get a job.... but that's just because i love them. i really don't want a job. i realize i need one. right now i am getting one because i must pay bills and stuff. but if i had a girl who'd be willing to support me like that, i think i would probably let them.

[DJ MELO]

Originally posted by beatgeek
Do you think women can bring in the dough just as well as men can?

I mean if you fall in love with ....lets say.....Angelina Jolie.... and she says hey you aint gotta work!! Id nbe like...hell yeah baby.. go make me and the fam some dough!!! :raveon:

[beatgeek]

(actually i was asking dj melo) and the reason i ask is... well let's take the hypothetical situation wherein a married couple successfully conceived a child, and now they're trying to figure out how to arrange their schedules to accomodate the kid. let's say both parents work at the moment, and the husband makes, say, $1000 more than his wife, and they're middle class. should the wife stay at home and nurture the child, even if the husband is great with kids and wants to stay at home more than the mother does?

[DJ MELO]

I would get bored though.. might have to do some work from home or something....

[beatgeek]

bored raising a child? raising a child is definitely a full time job, and a hard one at that

[DJ MELO]

Originally posted by beatgeek
(actually i was asking dj melo) and the reason i ask is... well let's take the hypothetical situation wherein a married couple successfully conceived a child, and now they're trying to figure out how to arrange their schedules to accomodate the kid. let's say both parents work at the moment, and the husband makes, say, $1000 more than his wife, and they're middle class. should the wife stay at home and nurture the child, even if the husband is great with kids and wants to stay at home more than the mother does?

Actually I know a couple this happened to. Two of my best friends. Now broken up but that is beside the point. She stayed home for a while. but returned to work like 2 months after birth. But what is really important is help with daycare. Some families just cant afford it. But my friends had grand parents and siblings and me ( I am good with kids and babysat 1 day a week). So they were ok.

[DJ MELO]

Originally posted by beatgeek
bored raising a child? raising a child is definitely a full time job, and a hard one at that

You are 100 percent right!!! Especially in the begining!

[DJ MELO]

I didnt mean bored actually RAISING the child, but I mean like with myself.

[beatgeek]

oh ok,. well that's a personal preference i suppose.

[El Magnifico]

Originally posted by DJ MELO
I would get bored though.. might have to do some work from home or something....

Well, you literally don't have to stay at home...you can take the kid (and yourself) places...the zoo, museums, the water park, for ten mile runs...

It's pretty much up to you and how much gear you can tote around.

[Thug Lite]

I work but that's just me.... Do what you want...

[buzzboy]

you work with your child by your side billy?

[gurl84]

yeah it is true bi girls like effeminate guys...... but i dont think i could support a guy while he's stays at home, and the same goes for a woman too. I've been raised that you work, because then it will help as much as possible.
:raveon:

oh yeah and Angelina Jolie is so damn hot! I want her body! :smooch:

[the sex molesters]

is it really true that bi girls like effeminate guys? i think that's bullshit. i have had bi girls complain that i am too effeminate for them.

[gurl84]

as far as features..... i think that effeminate guys are damn hot
if you hadn't guessed already, im bi. hehe

[the sex molesters]

well no i guess i'm not effeminate as far as feature. i just act like a damn woman sometimes!

[gurl84]

hmmm... i think alot of guys do but don't admit it. its funny, guys gossip way more than women, and they actually bitch alot more sometimes too. Personnally, i have that problem with my bf alot, its always just bitch bitch bitch bitch........

grrrrrrrrrrrr!

[the sex molesters]

i dunno about the gossipping thing. the guys i hang out with don't gossip. we do bitch a lot though. heh.

[buzzboy]

please submit picture...plurhaps i can fix the problem :tarvis:

[the sex molesters]

chris, you dog.

[buzzboy]

hahahahahhah......seriously.

[the sex molesters]

:delirious: man........... rofl.

[gurl84]

hehehe......... oh my lol. guys are funny
:smooch:

[Debbyduh]

I don't really think these times matter in the work field weither it is for a woman or a man.either can do the job as well as the other.if a man chose's to stay at home with the kids while the wify works then it's all good.taken care of children and the house work all in the same is just like a full time job.there really isn't stamps on jobs anymore like this is for women or this is for men.we are all equal in the work field.although men are stronger when it comes to manual labor and lifting but there are women out there that can pull there weight as well.i think it is awsome that more men are becomming nurses there is a high demand right now in the medical field.and if you went into the emergency room due to and illness or an accident i dont think at that time you will accually care which man/woman is working on you.plus it adds a sence of sercurity to the medical field for patients ie... rape victums prefer to been examined by there own gender and when it comes to that yearly embaressing examintion that we all will go through just makes it more comfortable for the same gender......plus you have to do what your heart tells you we were all put here for a reason might as well enjoy what you do and make the best of it right???????????

[xgirl]

wow. interesting thread. many interesting points.

i am fascinated how someone could state, in a roundabout way, that staying home to take care of the kids is effeminite. any family unit including children has a specific set of responsibilities--clearly, the kids come first. sometimes there is one person who does it all, but when a family is lucky enough to have 2 parents, i really don't think it matters who takes care of each specific responsibility as long as it's all done. i don't imagine having enough ego to care, as long as the children and home are cared for as they should be. i feel the same about relationships. as long as both people's needs are attended to, it's healthy. it doesn't matter who does what, as long as you find the right balance.

i, for one, cannot imagine staying home and not being involved in my career. i worked very very hard to get where i am, and my work is my life. i realize this will change when i have kids, but for now, it's the most important thing and i can't imagine just dropping it. having your own life is always healthy for you. i'm also in agreeance that socialization is GREAT for kids, which is why i will never never never send my children to any form of private or special school. life is not about learing how important YOU are, it's about learning how to relate to people. i will do everything i can to make sure they are into academics and athletics and extracurriculars, but i know i will judge my ability to be a parent based on how my children turn out as people. in the end, that is all that matters.

music education = brain power. i can't emphasize this enough. i had trouble until i started band and piano lessons--it really changes you to a number-related mind. i played for years, i played in college, and my math scores were awesome just a year after i started my first music lessons, although i struggled previously.

[pojimoko]

i've raised children and worked, by myself for years. i'd marry the first girl, on the spot, no questions asked, if she offered to let me stay home and raise children. fuck workin for whitey.

[EmmaK]

i think that whatever works best both economically and socially for the couple should dictate that kind of decision. what could be better than having both the freedom of mind and the financial stability to actually have a choice in the matter? i don't think it's "effeminate" for a man to select a profession more typically considered to be a woman's work, or to be a stay-at-home father...to me, that indicates he is a true man, because he is demonstrating the willingness to shun societal expectations of what is considered 'masculine'. it says he can operate as a whole person without denying himself of a full range of experiences, or limiting himself to backwards notions of acceptable emotional expression or power struggles associated with gender. i say props to whomever is able to stand up and take appropriate care of their children and home life--it's rare, from both genders.

[Muramasa]

I was actually just talking to my friend about this last night.

In the 70's a set of male twins was born in Canada (I think). During circumcision there was an accident with one of the boys. The parents decided to change "he" into a "she" so the child could have a somewhat normal life instead of having "inadequate" equipment.

Growing up the child had identity issues. Playing with boys, liking boy toys, having crushes on girls. Yet "she" was raised strictly as a female. At 18 she became suicidal and her parents told her everything that had happened. Crystal clarity ensued and she got another sex change back to her "true" self.

Bad thing was the psychiatrist that headed her case printed hundreds of magazine articles and was heralded as causing a turning point in the nature v. nurture debate. He lied. The bastid.

Anyway, when I had my daughter (my son was first) she NATURALLY gravitated towards the girl toys. She had no interaction with other kids her age besides Kevin, and most of the toys I had for her were his old ones. Yet, she still preferred the feminine toys.

What makes us true women and men is completely nature. What makes us strong, weak, nice, mean....effeminate, masculine...those things are given to us from the nurture aspect of it and the environment in which we are raised.

Just my opinion though.


I have to question this whole 'raised as a female' thing. Most parents, from what I've read about and seen, tend to treat their male children different than their female children. Now, although you say the kid was raised as a female, I wonder if the underlying knowledge that the girl was born a male caused the parents to unknowingly treat her a little more aggressively, as most parents do with their male children, i.e. the way they played with her as a baby, the tone of voice they took with her, chores they gave her, etc.

Personally, I'd love to sit around all day and have a wife to bring in the money, unless it involved kids. Children are horribly difficult to keep up with at times and require a monstrous amount of responsibility to raise properly. Although I think I'm capable of raising well mannered, responsible, intelligent children, I feel as if a woman might be a little more successful at the task because quite honestly, I've spent almost my entire life raised around my family as well as other families where the husband went to work, and the wife stayed home. While I know that this isn't a necessary component to MY life, I have a feeling that placed in the same situation I'd probably feel a slight bit uncomfortable due to the subconscious tendencies, associations, and behaviors that I've learned over the years, but haven't been able to exercise and then identify because I don't have kids.

Not saying anyone is a total victim of circumstance or that anyone else is necessarily like me, just throwing out a thought. I'm loving the ideas being discussed in this thread, btw.
:thumbsup:

[not applicable]

wow.


yall had some long posts that i did not read.


effeminite men are funny.





but so are guys that walk around partys telling people they make 6000 a month handing out flyers.




so either way theres bound to be someone around to make you laugh.

[Article One]

Been thinking about this recently...

What do you think about married men who stay home to take care of the kids while their wives work?

What do you think about men who follow "feminine" career paths, like being a nurse, a seamstress, or a preschool teacher?

Are gender roles limiting, or are they a necessary thread of the fabric of society?

What do you think of men who are sensitive, compassionate, and not very aggressive? How about women who are ambitious, independent, and less in touch with emotions?

Do you think gender identity is determined by biology, environment, or both?


i think people are always trying to compensate for something.


so, i guess it has more to do with the environment in which you were brought up or live.


and in general, if a guy stays home and takes care of the kids, i see nothing wrong with that. :gotme: ive seen what some of these moms go through, and i dont really see it as easy.

[badkitty3804]

I <3 effeminate men! :affection:

But seriously....

I think that it should work out to whatever is best for the family. If the woman happens to have the more successful career and what not, I don't see the issue with the man staying home and being an at home parent. :shrug:

[Julierose]

I <3 my metrosexual, effeminate boyfriend...

[tinybinderclip]

exactly! I’m reading this book called “The Difference: Growing Up Female in America,” and I'm really enjoying it, and I'm learning so much from it. It doesn’t preach or male-bash, and offers a lot of insight on what’s happening with our social structure now (it was written 10 years ago) that is still very accurate today. It explains in detail why so many girls fail at math, the inner workings of the educational system, etc.

And if you don't read it, it's quite obvious that the author wants you walk away with the knowledge that you MUST send your daughters to all-girl schools. She really beats that point into the ground. :D

I read a similar book called School Girls. Even female teachers give preferential treament to boys in school. Boys tending to get more attention or trying to get more attention often leave the shy/quiet girls overlooked and afraid to ask/answer questions in classes like math. Teachers found it easier to give the boys attention than to urge girls to answer.

I went to an all girls high school and no one gets off the hook there.

[tinybinderclip]

A real men and women mind their own business and live his/her own lives.

[Chop5]

This has been an issue for a while. In sociology we learned that males generally not always but generally think with there right side of their brains while females their left. On the right side of your brain is used for spaceal ablilitys, solving math problems and building things. The left side is expressing emotions, feelings, good argument skills, and such. This isnt always true. Some guys are just better at experssing their feelings then girls are or vise versa. I know my boyfriend has a better time telling me how he feels then I do cause half the time I dont even know. I think gender roles arent nessasary unles its biological like only females can have children. I think its good that dads stay home and take care of the children. Many men that have have said that they now know how hard it is and appriciate the work women have done staying home and can bond better with their children because I father is very important in a childs life. I think that who you are should be determined by who you are and not by your gender. I look at it as your a person and your a person not boy or girl. TReat everyone as a person no more or less because of your genitals. and I think its unfair to say if your a male you are automatically suppose to do this and this and dont complain. Just like if your born a female your life is restricted to cleaning toilets and rasiing a bunch of screaming whining pooping brats and you are allowed no fun in your life and your brain is a waste. I could never do that. But thats just me because Ive seen how people have treated my mom like shes stupid because she stays home and doesnt work and she one of the smartest people I know. I think its cool that you do what you wanna do and dont be affraid of society gender assigned roles. Shit gets me fired up. :yes: