Another Pointless Flamewar: A christian nation?

[empath]

Some quotes from the "Founding Fathers" on religion:


United States Constitution

The First Amendment
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...”

Article VI, Section 3
“...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”


John Adams (the second President of the United States)

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli (June 7, 1797). Article 11 states:
“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

From a letter to Charles Cushing (October 19, 1756):
“Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, ‘this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.’”

From a letter to Thomas Jefferson:
“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!”

Additional quotes from John Adams:
“Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?”

“The Doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”

“...Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”


Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)

Jefferson’s interpretation of the first amendment in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association (January 1, 1802):
“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

From Jefferson’s biography:
“...an amendment was proposed by inserting the words, ‘Jesus Christ...the holy author of our religion,’ which was rejected ‘By a great majority in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and the Mohammedan, the Hindoo and the Infidel of every denomination.’”

Jefferson’s “The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom”:
“Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry. . . .”

Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia (Query 17, “Religion”):
“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. . . .”

“Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these free inquiry must be indulged; how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse ourselves? But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?”

Jefferson’s letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823:
“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

Additional quotes from Thomas Jefferson:
“It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

“They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

“In every country and in every age the priest has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

“Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear....Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it end in a belief that there is no God, you will find incitements to virtue on the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others which it will procure for you.”

“...that our civil rights have no dependence on religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics and geometry.”


James Madison (the fourth President of the United States)

Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments:
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise....During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.”

Additional quote from James Madison:
“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”


Benjamin Franklin

From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“My parents had given me betimes religious impressions, and I received from my infancy a pious education in the principles of Calvinism. But scarcely was I arrived at fifteen years of age, when, after having doubted in turn of different tenets, according as I found them combated in the different books that I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself.”

From Franklin’s autobiography, p. 66:
“...Some books against Deism fell into my hands....It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quote to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations, in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.”


Thomas Paine

From The Age of Reason, pp. 8–9:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of....Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and of my own part, I disbelieve them all.”

From The Age of Reason:
“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion.”

From The Age of Reason:
“What is it the Bible teaches us? — rapine, cruelty, and murder.”

From The Age of Reason:
“Loving of enemies is another dogma of feigned morality, and has beside no meaning....Those who preach the doctrine of loving their enemies are in general the greatest prosecutors, and they act consistently by so doing; for the doctrine is hypocritical, and it is natural that hypocrisy should act the reverse of what it preaches.”

From The Age of Reason:
“The Bible was established altogether by the sword, and that in the worst use of it — not to terrify but to extirpate.”

Additional quote from Thomas Paine:
“It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”


Ethan Allen

From Religion of the American Enlightenment:
“Denominated a Deist, the reality of which I have never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian.”

[GTAVercetti]

organized religion = bad.

That is all.

[empath]

I think a little bit more of that quote from the Treaty of Tripoly (which was ratified by the Senate, and thus has the force of law, even today) is interesting, in light of what we're involved with in the middle east now:

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslems],-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan [Islamic] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

[KlondikeTW v2.0]

Seriously, down with Christians...and Catholics too. Horrible, horrible people.

[empath]

well its not about being anti-christian. It's just about keeping them from using government as a way of advancing their religious goals...

[maynard]

In Leviticus it says "If a man lies with another man as he lies with a woman, he is in abomination and is worthy of death" or something like that.

In the same book, it says something about it being horribly wrong for a woman to have her head uncovered in church.

Where are all the people complaining loudly about hatless ladies? The main issue I have with organized religion is its ability to pick and choose what it wants to be all gung-ho about, and the subsequent closed-mindedness.

I like to think of myself as a spiritual person, but fuck religion.

[empath]

“They [the clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition of their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the alter of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

The latter half of this quote-- "I have sworn against the altar of God..." is inscribed in the Jefferson memorial. Which has a much different meaning taken out of context.

[GTAVercetti]

do NOT get me started on biblical inconsistancies....

[empath]

this was an open letter to Dr Laura:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. But I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan

--Unknown

[GTAVercetti]

that about sums it up...

[Gizmo]

"keep your rosaries out of my ovaries."

dammit.

[maynard]

best....letter....ever

[GTAVercetti]

especially take into account that the words of the Old Testament were supposed to be "inspired" by God. And the words of the New Testament? Acccounts by Jesus's friends...and we all know how our friends fuck up retalling stories....

[Gizmo]

yeah that letter kicks dr. laura's ass.

[uberclkgtr]

John, you've carefully selected who you've quoted from our founding fathers. Some were not very religious, many were. To say we were not a Christian nation at our founding is not accurate in my view.

But that letter kicks Dr Laura's ass.

[GTAVercetti]

funny, the one's he chose seem pretty DAMN important.

and regardless, a government based on religion is pretty fucking stupid.

[Alexis]

I'd like to thank Catholicism for providing me with years worth of irreversable damage/guilt and sadness.

You know, my family still believes I attend Church on the Regular, pray consistently and am Virginal.

If they knew that I was not a practicing catholic, I would not be allowed to see my cousins grow up, or set foot in any of their households.

Crazy Roman Catholics.

I have faith in something other than what I was spoonfed to believe in. I am spiritual...just not in an organized way.

:fett:

[Vedant]

Wow, so much anti-Christian sentiment...I'm disgusted. It's really easy to attack a religion if you take its minot points and contradictions and use them to justify that it's wrong or sucks. Try attacking this: Love everyone. And no, not many Christians radiate this most important ideology. It makes me ashamed of Christianity that others make you feel this way.

[GTAVercetti]

I don't just detest Chrisianity; I detest ALL organized religion. Religion has cause more pain in this world than any good it may have produced.

[GTAVercetti]

And a few examples:

Current Israeli/Palestinian conflicts
The Crusades (brutally brought on by Christians)
The Dark Ages
Witch Hunts
The KKK ("its what god wants")
and I could go on...

what benefits has it produced?

[Gizmo]

:yes:

faith and religion are not to be confused. However, the unavoidable truth is that it is human nature to congregate with others of like mind, especially when it's around a shared ideal as all-encompassing as the Giant Question (why are we here?), which is the demon seed that produces the evils of religion.

it cannot be avoided, it can only be rebelled against on a private level.

[maynard]

The United States was not "based" on religion so to speak, but many of the founders were god-fearing men, so they applied their principles when they founded this country... I am agreeing with James here.

Some of my very good friends are homosexual, and if I followed the adage of "homosexuality is an abomination" and judged these people I would be a lesser person for it. I just can't see why anyone would be PROUD to be that closed-minded.

My whole family is pretty religious, I'm constantly getting in arguments with my parents/siblings about homosexuality, President Bush, etc... keeps me on my toes. It just pains me know they actually BELIEVE all that...

[beatgeek]

Keep your rosaries off my testicles.

[GTAVercetti]

but we must remember:

Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

now, check out this site to get some explanations:

http://www.truluck.com/ very cool

[Alexis]

Originally posted by Vedant
Wow, so much anti-Christian sentiment...I'm disgusted. It's really easy to attack a religion if you take its minot points and contradictions and use them to justify that it's wrong or sucks. Try attacking this: Love everyone. And no, not many Christians radiate this most important ideology. It makes me ashamed of Christianity that others make you feel this way.

A lot of people become turned off by religion because of the indecent ways it's presented to them.
You're not going to openly embrace something when it's forcefed to you every day of your life since birth, and then when it's questioned your told you're going to burn in the fiery depths of hell with Satan....I am far from anti-christianity. I am also far from anti-catholocism.
Do I practice either? no. It's much different when religion is presented to you in a loving way, when you have a choice in the matter, and when you can choose freely what you'd like to practice and belive.
When you have no say, that is when one becomes bitter on such ideas.
No one was attacking "Love everyone"

[maynard]

http://www.truluck.com/html/the_bible_and_homosexuality.html

Nice find, Rob :thumbsup:

[uberclkgtr]

Originally posted by WanderingStarz


A lot of people become turned off by religion because of the indecent ways it's presented to them.

indecent? like priests and alterboys? :noway:

:D

[GTAVercetti]

This is great:

WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN SODOM?

To twist the story to say what it does not say is to miss what it does say. The story does not deal with sexual orientation or with homosexuality and has no bearing at all on the issue of God's acceptance or rejection of Gays and Lesbians. The story of Sodom clearly teaches that evil and violent people who attack aliens and strangers whom they do not know or understand receive God's quick and terrible punishment. (my note: The irony today is delicious is it not?)

The purpose of the story is to show that misunderstood, strange, or feared minorities in any community are in danger from violence by the majority when that majority is ignorant, ungodly, selfish and afraid. The real message of Sodom is backwards from the claims of homophobic preachers and teachers. The Gay and Lesbian minority in our society today is more like the guests in Lot's house who were protected behind closed doors ("in the closet") than like the frightened mindless mob that wanted to expose, humiliate and destroy people that they did not "know" and control.

Set the record straight! Genesis 19 is about the fear (like homophobia) and anger of a mob (like many misguided religious fanatics) directed against a small group of isolated strangers (like Gays and Lesbians today) in their midst. Sexual orientation is not the issue here or anywhere else in the Bible.

Read also the strange story in Judges 19:1-30 of the Levite in Gibeah, which was patterned after the story of Lot and the angels in Genesis 19. Jewish teachers before the time of Christ never saw either of these stories as having any connection with homosexuality or sexual orientation. Neither should we.

[maynard]

Originally posted by WanderingStarz


A lot of people become turned off by religion because of the indecent ways it's presented to them.
You're not going to openly embrace something when it's forcefed to you every day of your life since birth, and then when it's questioned your told you're going to burn in the fiery depths of hell with Satan....I am far from anti-christianity. I am also far from anti-catholocism.
Do I practice either? no. It's much different when religion is presented to you in a loving way, when you have a choice in the matter, and when you can choose freely what you'd like to practice and belive.
When you have no say, that is when one becomes bitter on such ideas.
No one was attacking "Love everyone"

:werd:

I was forced through a "Christian" school from grades K-12. By the time I hit high school, I started to become soured on religion... by the time I graduated I was simply going through the motions. When I turned 18 and my parents said that my life was mine to live, I told them I wouldn't be going to church anymore, save for Christmas Eve.

My brother just graduated high school, he still claims to hold true to all of the Christian ideals... let's see how this first year in college treats him.

You can't force religion on anyone... my parents did so in hopes I would become this holy Christian man, and it totally backfired on them.

[empath]

Originally posted by Vedant
Wow, so much anti-Christian sentiment...I'm disgusted. It's really easy to attack a religion if you take its minot points and contradictions and use them to justify that it's wrong or sucks. Try attacking this: Love everyone. And no, not many Christians radiate this most important ideology. It makes me ashamed of Christianity that others make you feel this way.

Christians don't have a monopoly on love.

In fact, I'm perfectly capable of love for my fellow man without resorting to a bunch of mythological mumbo-jumbo.

[Vedant]

Organized religion is not a bad thing essentially. It's when people themselves feel the need to enforce their morals and beliefs on others, be it political, social, religious, etc. You think it's a nice thing that Muslims invaded areas and forcibly circumcise men because they think that's going to make them Muslim, or that we indeed had a "manifest destiny" to commit genocide on the Natives, and for a non-religion example, what about the enforcement of communism on the Tibetans: the exact opposite: the enforcement of no religion, or the enforcement of full-fledged allegiance to a race by lynching non-whites like the KKK. Don't get all high on yourself saying that religion has caused more harm than good. Fucked up people are the ones that have caused more harm, be it Muslims, Christians, Jews, Republicans, Democrats, Communists, Racists, Sexists, transexual lesbian feminazi's...you get the idea.

[Alexis]

Some families go overkill on it.

Statues, Nightly rosaries, Attending Catholic School AND sunday school. Holy days of obligation. School time masses. Night time bible reading. Visits to the Shrine. Religious Television programming.

Nothing is wrong with any of these things. Cram packed into every day of your entire life until you're leagally able to move out? Not healthy, man.

One might...sayy....rebel?
:evilred:

[maynard]

Quick question: if organized religion never existed, how many lives would have been spared throughout the entire course of human history? Can we even get a ballpark figure? Doubt it. Between the Crusades, the Inquisition, and whatever else, the religion death toll has got to be unreal.

[empath]

The problem isn't religion, but faith and blind obedience to authority.

[maynard]

and Vedant, you're entitled to your opinions, and what not... but my advice to you is to walk away now, or you will be :owned:

Just some friendly advice :D There are some peeps on this board (Rob and John come to mind) who REALLY know their shit. I say, if you're going to disagree with something, you better know MORE than the people who buy into it.

[empath]

Originally posted by uberclkgtr
John, you've carefully selected who you've quoted from our founding fathers. Some were not very religious, many were. To say we were not a Christian nation at our founding is not accurate in my view.

But that letter kicks Dr Laura's ass.

Just curious...

Do you have some counter-examples?

I mainly posted those quotes because people often say that the founding fathers didn't MEAN for church & state to be seperated when they wrote the 1st amendment, or that they only meant that you could be any kind of Christian, but not an atheist or a muslim, and those clearly demonstrate that the Founding Fathers clearly appreciated the right not to be Christian and understood the dangers of organized religion getting involved in government.

[uberclkgtr]

:werd: John. People have to think for themselves.

...unless they're stupid. Then they should have other, smarter people think for them.

:smurf:

[Vedant]

I didn't say that you have to be Christian to love. All I said is that people started out making references to relatively irrelevant points when compared to the main foundation and ideology of Christianity.

[GTAVercetti]

It is certainly true that religion on its own is not inherently bad. BUT, as John said, it certainly has been shown throughout history that more often than not, those who follow religion have taken the path of blind obedience, which has led to the suffering of countless of million throughout history.

[empath]

I'm not anti-christian, but I am anti-fundamentalist, and I think people that claim to believe in the literal truth of the bible are either lying or retarded.

[Vedant]

Bring it.

[Vedant]

I have to go to class in a few though so you all will probabaly get the last word...

[Liquidguru]

follow buddha to nirvana :meditate:

[Alexis]

It's also that "We're right and everyone else is wrong" attitude that a lot of religions take that causes the problems.

If more of the followers and organizers of these faiths were open and accepting of other peoples lifestyles and beliefs then maybe it wouldn't be such an issue.

-Let he who is without sin cast the first stone- right?

something like that.

[GTAVercetti]

yes, the idea of christianity is a good one....too bad VERY VERY VERY few actually follow what it preaches. instead, they take it to the extreme and create violence and hatred. Therefore, I say it has failed.

Be spiritual if you want, embrace the ideals of christianity or any other religion, but forget about actually BELONGING to a religion.

[maynard]

Originally posted by empath
I'm not anti-christian, but I am anti-fundamentalist, and I think people that claim to believe in the literal truth of the bible are either lying or retarded.

I tell my mom all the time that she needs to stop reading the Bible so literally, and she just looks at me like I'm a crazy person. All I can do is just shake my head and walk away.

[uberclkgtr]

Originally posted by empath


Just curious...

Do you have some counter-examples?

Not at hand, and I really don't have the time to google them up. But I do think quoting a few elites in a society in general is not a good method to determine the cultural/religious makeup of the general populace. It's the same method that evangelical Christians use - they quote all the religious luminaries from the period of our founding that supposedly show the opposite, that we were a Christian nation at our core and that somehow, we've strayed from it. In fact, they quote the same people - Jefferson, Franklin, etc - just different quotations taken out of a different context.

:shrug:

[maynard]

Originally posted by WanderingStarz
-Let he who is without sin cast the first stone- right?

Bingo. Here you are! :D

http://www.saysosites.com/cookie-blank-black.gif

[Vedant]

Hey speaking of Christians messing everything up ... I sort of gave Ishkur the link to iiproductions ... needless to say you should all check out his site right now ... hehehe

[GTAVercetti]

Originally posted by uberclkgtr


Not at hand, and I really don't have the time to google them up. But I do think quoting a few elites in a society in general is not a good method to determine the cultural/religious makeup of the general populace. It's the same method that evangelical Christians use - they quote all the religious luminaries from the period of our founding that supposedly show the opposite, that we were a Christian nation at our core and that somehow, we've strayed from it. In fact, they quote the same people - Jefferson, Franklin, etc - just different quotations taken out of a different context.

:shrug:

Not to argue...oh wait, yes I am, but the founding fathers did not take a poll of the populace to make the rules. They got together and created rules that they thought would best suit a new nation. They did not have some kind of vote to decide the rules. I am sure they got a general feel for what the people wanted though. And the founding fathers can be religious all they want but they knew that having religion mixed with politics was a bad idea.

[empath]

Oh, I wouldn't dream of arguing that the vast majority of Americans have always been Christian. That still doesn't make ours a Christian nation..

Btw, if you're really a christian, give away all your stuff and go out helping people. That's what Jesus ACTUALLY preached.

[GTAVercetti]

yup yup, you should not be doing anything except spreading the word of God and living a very meager existance.

[Alexis]

Not technically. He didn't "Preach" that. It was more of a lifestyle that he promoted. Nowhere did it suggest that the path of the righteous was having no worldy possessions and preaching. Though it may have been spread the good word and not become attached to those fleeting worldy conveniences.

Jesus did not come up with Organized religion. The followers of his came up with it. Jesus was Jewish.

[Gizmo]

I personally don’t advocate the teaching of religion to minors who aren’t of age to make choices for themselves. I used to be a Jehovah’s Witness, and I had to go out with the others and knock on people’s doors at 11:00 am on a Saturday (I was 8 years old), not to mention completely consume what they were saying about original sin and how evil masturbation was and how we couldn’t associate with “worldly” people, leading me to plead with my best friend to convert to Jehovah’s Witnesses so she wouldn’t go to hell. It was really traumatizing.

and I had NO idea what the ACTUAL doctrine of the religion was until last month, when I went into the library and came across a reference book about fundamentalist religion.

so basically, I had all of the guilt from the dogma and none of the “inner light” that came with the faith side of it.

[Alexis]

Where is Dan??? He runs a recovering JW messageboard, he'll be all over this...

(bboyneko)

[Gizmo]

are you kidding me? Dan used to be JW too?

small world.

[empath]

"Him that taketh away thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again."

"Blessed be ye poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." [Luke vi. 20.] But woe unto you that are rich, for ye have received your consolation."

[GTAVercetti]

BAM!

[Alexis]

As stated before.

It depends on if you're taking it literally.....

You can read those literally, but they can also be interpreted in other ways.

:FUBAR:

[Alexis]

Originally posted by Gizmo
are you kidding me? Dan used to be JW too?

small world.

Yes, he really has A LOT to say on the subject. You should talk to him sometime about it. It really did a number on his head.

[empath]

Blah, I just tend to take what the guy said at face value. You'd think that since he was God, that if he meant to say something other than what he said, he'd have just said that.

Believing something else kind of implies that God sucks at public speaking...

[GTAVercetti]

I would say that when a "direct" quote from Jesus says, "give to everyone who asks something of you", I can be safe in taking it literally, if I truly followed the Bible, that is.

[GTAVercetti]

John and I said the same thing :D

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by WanderingStarz


Yes, he really has A LOT to say on the subject. You should talk to him sometime about it. It really did a number on his head.

yeah, me too actually.
the only thing that saved me from being swallowed up by that religion was that my parents really weren’t all that orthodox.

[Vedant]

Originally posted by Vedant
Hey speaking of Christians messing everything up ... I sort of gave Ishkur the link to iiproductions ... needless to say you should all check out his site right now ... hehehe

Did no one check it out? Anyway, I'm out. Latz.

[Article One]

i was thinking about it this way the other day: Christian religions preach how God loves everyone and we are His children and bla bla bla. Now, knowing we are inherently inquisitive and paranoid and non-believing creatures, as HE created us, you would think he would leave a little less to interpretation and Faith. I mean, why all the guessing games?

why do i have to "have faith" that He exists. If He is truly this all powerful God and wants me to believe in Him, why cant i just strike up a conversation with Him at will? why all this, "ill send my son to die for your sins and that is sorta kinda proof that i exist, but really that guy coulda been a BC times David Koresh" stuff?

it almost seems, when u think of it this way, that God is messing with us. That doesnt seem like an "all-loving" God to me. In fact, thats completely unfair. You show me NO proof of your existence, yet if i dont TRULY believe in you, you'll damn me to Hell?

PUH-LEASE. :rolleyes:

[zartan]

let's not be unfair - not ALL religions are bad; what have Buddhists or Buddhism ever done that anyone has a problem with? Ok, Buddhism is not strictly a religion, but maybe that's the point...

Seriously tho when people say "i hate all organized religion" i've got to throw Buddhism out there for comment. Hence, eric=buddhist.

[GTAVercetti]

that is what I am saying...Buddhism is not a STRICT organized religion (ie, no going to church, no praying 5 times a day, no visiting the synagogue).

and Article One, I have thought that many many times.

[Article One]

Originally posted by GTAVercetti


and Article One, I have thought that many many times.


:werd: exactly.

ill believe in you, ill worship you, ill do whatever you want. all i want to know is you exist, and i dont feel thats asking too much.

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Article One
i was thinking about it this way the other day: Christian religions preach how God loves everyone and we are His children and bla bla bla. Now, knowing we are inherently inquisitive and paranoid and non-believing creatures, as HE created us, you would think he would leave a little less to interpretation and Faith. I mean, why all the guessing games?

why do i have to "have faith" that He exists. If He is truly this all powerful God and wants me to believe in Him, why cant i just strike up a conversation with Him at will? why all this, "ill send my son to die for your sins and that is sorta kinda proof that i exist, but really that guy coulda been a BC times David Koresh" stuff?

it almost seems, when u think of it this way, that God is messing with us. That doesnt seem like an "all-loving" God to me. In fact, thats completely unfair. You show me NO proof of your existence, yet if i dont TRULY believe in you, you'll damn me to Hell?

PUH-LEASE. :rolleyes:

way to sock it to the Lord, Doug! :D

but I do agree with you.

[Article One]

well, maybe He should come debate me. i have free time this afternoon at about 3:00pm. we could use the 9th floor conference room.

[GTAVercetti]

Would he fit? I bet he is pretty tall :shrug:

[empath]

Originally posted by zartan74
let's not be unfair - not ALL religions are bad; what have Buddhists or Buddhism ever done that anyone has a problem with? Ok, Buddhism is not strictly a religion, but maybe that's the point...

Seriously tho when people say "i hate all organized religion" i've got to throw Buddhism out there for comment. Hence, eric=buddhist.

http://www.darkzen.com/Articles/zenholy.html

A lot of people believe this, but it's not true. Buddhism has been complicit in quite a lot of violence:


"If ordered to march: tramp, tramp or shoot: bang, bang. This is the manifestation of the highest wisdom of enlightenment. The unity of Zen and war ... extends to the farthest reaches of the holy war now under way."

Zen Master Harada Daiun Sogaku - 1939

"Warriors who sacrifice their lives for the emperor will not die. They will live forever. Truly they should be called gods and Buddhas for whom there is no life or death. Where there is absolute loyalty there is no life or death."

Lieutenant Colonel Sugimoto Goro



>>Victoria pinpoints Shaku Soen (1859-1919) as one of the first Zen Masters to enthusiastically embrace war as Zen training. Well-known as D. T. Suzuki's teacher, Soen is revered in the history of Buddhism in the West as the first Zen teacher to visit the United States. In the war against Russia, Soen served as a chaplain in 1904. "I wished to inspire," Soen later wrote, "our valiant soldiers with the ennobling thoughts of the Buddha, so as to enable them to die on the battlefield with confidence that the task in which they are engaged is great and noble. I wish to convince them.... that this war is not a mere slaughter of their fellow-beings, but that they are combating an evil."

From Soen's point of view, since everything was one essence, war and peace were identical. Everything reflected the glory of Buddha, including war. And since the Buddha's main purpose was to subjugate evil, and since the enemy of Japan was inherently evil, war against evil was the essence of Buddhism. "In the present hostilities," Soen wrote, "into which Japan has entered with great reluctance, she pursues no egotistic purpose, but seeks the subjugation of evils hostile to civilization, peace and enlightenment." (Japan's invasion of Russia was entirely self-serving and hardly reluctant.). To Soen, war was " an inevitable step toward the final realization of enlightenment."

Soen used the phrases "just war" and "holy war." Japan was engaged in a "war of compassion" fought by bodhisattva soldiers against the enemies of Buddha. As Rinzai Zen Master Nantembo (1839 - 1925) preached, there was "no bodhisattva practice superior to the compassionate taking of life." (Soen considered any opposition to war as "a product of egotism.") Reading these words now, they seem clear examples of disturbed religious thinking. Buddhist teachings, language and symbols, like any religion, can be perverted and twisted to support nationalism and violence. It is important to note that Soen is not some fringe crackpot. He is still almost worshipped in Japan as one of the great "fully enlightened" Zen Masters of our time.<<

>>This is Zen bushido in action: Killing as high art. The soldiers are being taught the perfect etiquette in beheading -- the exact way to cleanse the sword, the proper way to swing the weapon, the strong virile shout. With this image in mind, consider the following passage that D. T. Suzuki wrote at the same time as the Nanking massacre:

"... the art of swordsmanship distinguishes between the sword that kills and the sword that gives life. The one that is used by a technician cannot go any further than killing.... The case is altogether different with the one who is compelled to lift the sword. For it is really not he but the sword itself that does the killing. He had no desire to harm anybody, but the enemy appears and makes himself a victim. It is though the sword automatically performs its function of justice, which is the function of mercy…. the swordsman turns into an artist of the first grade, engaged in producing a work of genuine originality."<<

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Article One
well, maybe He should come debate me. i have free time this afternoon at about 3:00pm. we could use the 9th floor conference room.

All right, I'll be there. But I might have to catch some starbucks first.

by the way, it’s She.



:D

[GTAVercetti]

Originally posted by Gizmo


All right, I'll be there. But I might have to catch some starbucks first.

by the way, it’s She.



:D

nope, its an it....neither male nor female....but he is the general term used when unsure of gender. :) :D

[Article One]

can God create a rock so big and so heavy that even S/He cant lift it?

[zartan]

At its essence, however, Buddhism is not a crusading or violent religion, and compared to the other organized religions, its practice has largely borne this out. I will grant you that *any* system of beliefs can be twisted to support violence, and I don't doubt that this has happened with Buddhism. However, taken as a whole and compared to the way other religions have manifested themselves in the world, Buddhism is a stark contrast.

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Article One
can God create a rock so big and so heavy that even S/He cant lift it?
if God’s a She, She would probably ask some guy to lift it for Her so She won't break a Nail.

besides God doesn't lift things. That's what humans are for. We're all just sea monkeys, after all.

[GTAVercetti]

at its essence, christianity is not a crusading religion either....that was not what Jesus was about....but the point is that even Buddhism, a generally passive religion,can get out of control when there are zealots. Thereby, I will pass and not collect 200 dollars on my way out of ANY organized religion.

[Article One]

Originally posted by Gizmo

if God’s a She, She would probably ask some guy to lift it for Her so She won't break a Nail.

besides God doesn't lift things. That's what humans are for. We're all just sea monkeys, after all.

well, at least you didnt fall victim to actually trying to seriously defend an answer to that question.

its loaded like a 14 year old with no arms who watched porn alone all day.

[empath]

Any religion accepted and put to the service by the state will have to, by necessity, endorse violence.

[the sex molesters]

i don't need to say anything.... everything that had to be said was said on the first page.

[GTAVercetti]

thanks for letting us know you don't need to say anything by...ummmm....saying something.

[Gizmo]

Originally posted by Article One
its loaded like a 14 year old with no arms who watched porn alone all day.

:afterbuzz:

"What! Man, you can't go out there with a loaded gun!"

[the sex molesters]

Originally posted by GTAVercetti
thanks for letting us know you don't need to say anything by...ummmm....saying something.

on the topic, jackass. on the TOPIC!!!!

[GTAVercetti]

excuse me, did you just call me a jackass?

obviously the irony of your post entirely escaped you.

[koolaidluva]

Originally posted by maynard
In Leviticus it says &quot;If a man lies with another man as he lies with a woman, he is in abomination and is worthy of death&quot; or something like that.

In the same book, it says something about it being horribly wrong for a woman to have her head uncovered in church.

Where are all the people complaining loudly about hatless ladies? The main issue I have with organized religion is its ability to pick and choose what it wants to be all gung-ho about, and the subsequent closed-mindedness.

I like to think of myself as a spiritual person, but fuck religion.

werd Dan and tha rest of the free thinkers.....if peepz would fuck religion, and its pre-mandated ancient unenlightened azz beliefs and learn to think spiritually for themselves...this world could be the best of worlds, Beliefs should be accepted as philosophies not religions...all this im right your wrong crap gets on my nerves

[koolaidluva]

another thing..dont let people turn u off to being a spiritual person,yeah ALOT of christians and other organized crazy people have fucked up this world, but remember people are people, people are crazy they have their own agenda which may/may not be in tru step to the essence of what they claim to follow, tru christianity and most other philosophies at root are in essesence the gospel of LOVE and the ethos of being non-judgemetal of your fellow man because ALL have done wrong....think for yourself and base your spirituality NOT on the actions of others, Totally dismissing a spirit that is higher than us because of the lame azz actions of others...iz roughly like sayin i wont go to buzz anymore because hardly anyone dances..realize that as time goes on and humanity gets further away from its "roots"...God,The Tao,The Way, Tha Buddah...your personal spiritualty whatever u decide to call it..is gonna be harder to actually see...but u must never loose that view because the spirit has no end.....

[empath]

I'm totally down with personal spirituality and searching for higher truths.

I'm not down with people being sheep.

[GTAVercetti]

You make some decent points. I just wish you would use some semblance of proper sentence structure.

[empath]

He's a free-thinker, man. So-called 'grammar' and 'spelling' are just tools the white, patriarchal society uses to oppress and control us.

[koolaidluva]

well my moms is a english teacher...every damn summer i had to write papers with PERFECT PUNCTUATION and spelling.. n read books..with book reports n such..ON THIS BOARD I REBEL AGAINST HER TACTICS!

[GTAVercetti]

OH MY GOD, your mom was obviously satan. But seriously, I usually skip an entry in which I have to translate whatever grammer is being used to English.

[zartan]

he he - you said "grammer"

[GTAVercetti]

glad SOMEONE caught that :D

[PizzaTheSlut]

if you wana quote scripture, go with leviticus. nothing like "he that curses his parents shall be put to death." love that old testament b.s.