How does one justify the killing of Palestinians with missiles?

[rajdeep]

Ok, so I condemn the Hamas. But more so I condemn the Israeli government. How does one come to terms with and think that it's ok to retaliate in crowded civilian populations with missiles?????

And where the F*** is the international pressure to condemn Sharon's actions? Bush is moving cautiously with "moderate" remarks on the situation? I suppose all this should be justified in the "war on terrorism"!!

:falatic:

It's a mutli-choice poll.
Israeli attack kills 7 in Gaza, Palestinian officials say (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/12/mideast/index.html)

[Liquidguru]

i think that both sides need to stop. The Hamas say that they wont stop until there are nojews left in palestine, and Sharon is going to retaliate brutally as he has already shown. its a messed up situation, and i condem both sides equallly

[rajdeep]

I think as a legally recognized government Israel should be made to curtail their actions or declare an outright war. As far as I'm concerned the killing of 3 & 8 yr old girls because of their father's actions is not justifiable in any ways to the sickening term that is "collateral damage".

As far as I'm concerned Israel is now in my books as a major human rights abuser.

[Liquidguru]

one would think that with the history or persecution the jews have know that Isreal would see what they were doing and not take these types of actions.

[Dizardak]

IMO there is no possible peaceful resolution here because religious waters run too deep. I don't condemn murderers so I refuse to condemn either. Being Jewish I can relate to the Israelis more, but no one is right in this situation. Religion is the cause of all the worlds problems.

[Liquidguru]

Originally posted by Dizardak
Religion is the cause of all the worlds problems.

make it organized religion and :werd:

[rajdeep]

The Israel-Palestine conflict has little to do with religion than it has to do with occupation of Palestine lands.

[empath]

To me the best analogy for what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is what we did to the Native Americans.

You can have this land, until we want it, then you have to leave... then you can stay here, until we want to settle there and then you have to leave, using each attack by the Palestineans as a new excuse to take more land, destroy more homes. expand the boundaries of Israel.

It's colonization, pure and simple.

[Dizardak]

True, but each religion has those lands as their holy lands. They wouldn't give a shit about their physical land, just how much they had if it was simply a land dispute.

[velvetgoldmire]

This has been a back-and-forth issue for decades. Bombs in the middle of public malls, stonings, now this... both sides are at fault.


Ironic that all of these atrosities are taking place in the holy land.

[rajdeep]

Any piece of land is important to people in the world. Take the example of Kashmir between India & Pakistan.

[velvetgoldmire]

Originally posted by empath
To me the best analogy for what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians is what we did to the Native Americans.

You can have this land, until we want it, then you have to leave... then you can stay here, until we want to settle there and then you have to leave, using each attack by the Palestineans as a new excuse to take more land, destroy more homes. expand the boundaries of Israel.

It's colonization, pure and simple.
You're talking like the Palistinians aren't at any fault in the history. It is an unfair comparison to compare it with the history of European colonists with American Indians. Jews have been persecuted and kicked out of basically every single country in Europe. They still aren't welcome in certain areas. The UN voted in the 40s to give them, what according to Jewish history, was their homeland. Now, I am not saying that their actions are justified, but it is quite different than the colonization of the Americas.

[Dizardak]

Originally posted by velvetgoldmire

You're talking like the Palistinians aren't at any fault in the history. It is an unfair comparison to compare it with the history of European colonists with American Indians. Jews have been persecuted and kicked out of basically every single country in Europe. They still aren't welcome in certain areas. The UN voted in the 40s to give them, what according to Jewish history, was their homeland. Now, I am not saying that their actions are justified, but it is quite different than the colonization of the Americas.

i agree, apples and oranges

[empath]

The Puritans weren't welcome in England and were persecuted so they fled to New England where they stole the land from the Indians. The Catholics fled to Maryland where they stole land from the Indians.

The Indians attacked and killed settlers, women and children in unprovoked attack.

It's not that different.

[empath]

The UN voted to give them Israel after Israeli terrorists forced the UK to leave Palestine. It wasn't just a gift. And even if it were a gift by the UN, they had no right to give it, because there were already people living there.

[Dizardak]

did 6 million puritains and catholics die in English death camps? not the same thing!

[velvetgoldmire]

The question is whose homeland is it? The Palentinians were there before Israel was declared a state, but, is you go deeper in history, the Jews were there way earlier, and, from a certain point of view, were getting land back that was theirs in the first place. The Americas were NEVER, until the colonization, a homeland for Puritans, Catholics, or any other Europeans.

My opinion? Israel is both of their homelands, both of their holy lands, and they should celebrate the fact that they share this bond. But, that's not going to happen.

[rajdeep]

Well, obviously the solution doesn't lie in the past as can vbe seen from our discussion here.

It doesn't matter anymore who did what, when, where or for that matter who did it first.

The Israeli government should stop all assaults against Palestinian civilan settlements. It is a formal government and has to show a greater level of diplomacy than launching military assaults just for the sake of "retaliation".

What happened to arresting the terrorists? But they seem to believe in the new-age mantra of the war on terrorism "Shoot first, don't ask any questions".

At this rate, with innocents being attacked and their homes being bulldozed, I don't hesitate in calling the Israeli government a terrorist organisation.

[empath]

So because the Germans tried to exterminate them, that gives them the right commit whatever crimes they feel like committing?

[empath]

There were 60 million black slaves in this country, should we give african americans the right to kick the egyptians out of Egypt?

[empath]

Zionist terrorism prior to the founding of Israel:

# The first airplane hijacked was committed by Israel in 1954 when a civilian Syrian airliner was hijacked immediately after taking off.(Walid Khalidi, Palestine Reborn)

# The first car bomb was an invention of the Zionists(ENC,90-91).

# Grenades in cafes, first used against Palestinians in Jerusalem on 17 March, 1937(Enc,90-91).

# Delayed-action, electrically timed mines in crowded market-places: first against Palestinians in Haifa, 6 July, 1938.(Enc,90-91)

# Blowing up a ship with its civilian passengers still on board: first in Haifa, 25 November, 1940. The Zionists did not hesitate to blow up their own people to protest the British policy of strict Jewish immigration to Palestine. The ship ‘Patria’ had 1,700 Jewish immigrants, 253 lives lost. The ship Struma, carrying 760 Jewish immigrants sank in the Black Sea as a result of an explosion on February 24, 1942. Seven hundred and sixty (760) Jewish lives were lost. In later years, it was admitted that the Haganah general staff had the ship blown up in order to lay the charge at the door of the Mandate Government (Bitter Harvest, Sami Hadawi, p. 55).

# Assassination of government official outside Palestine: first used against the British in Cairo, 6 November, 1944 when Lord Moyne, Secretary of State, was assassinated by the Stern Gang. Yitzhak Shamir, a member of the Irgun and later leader of the Stern Gang was behind the plan(Enc. and Bitter Harvest).

# Taking of hostages to put pressure on a government: first used against the British in Tel Aviv, 18 June, 1946(Encyclopedia,p.67).

# Blowing up government offices with their civilian employees and visitors: first used against the British in Jerusalem, 22 July, 1946. The toll was 91 Britons, and 46 injured in King David Hotel. Begin, who masterminded and carried out the attack admitted that the massacre was coordinated with and carried out under the instruction of the Haganah(Enc.pp.267-8).

# Booby-trapped suitcase: first used against the British Embassy in Rome, 13 October, 1946.

# Booby-trapped car parked alongside buildings: first used against the British in Sarafand (east of Jaffa) on 5 December, 1946.

# Flogging of hostages: first used against the British in Tel Aviv, Natanya and Rishon, 29 December, 1946.

# Letter-bombs sent to politicians outside Palestine: first used against Britain when twenty letter-bombs were sent from Italy to London between 4 and 6 June, 1947(Enc.Palestine.68-69).

# Murder of hostages as a reprisal for government actions: first used against the British in Natanya area on 29/30 July, 1947 and making a booby trap out of their bodies. The note left with the bodies read: “This is the sentence of the Irgun’s High Command”(New York Times, August, 1947, I:8 - quoted in Sami Hadawi’s Bitter Harvest, p.61).

# Postal Parcel-bomb sent outside Palestine: first used against the British in London, 3 September, 1947.

# Assassination of UN Mediator Count Folke Bernadotte and his French aide on September 17, 1948. The Stern Gang, under Shamir leadership, planned and executed the assassination because he made suggestions to vary the partition plan of Palestine. “If the world listens to Bernadotte and pressures our weakling government into making concessions, we will have lost our State.” Sheib said. “We can’t let this happen. We must show the world that it is just as futile for the UN to interfere in our affairs as it was for the British”(Enc. of Palestine.,p.160).

[easysl]

Israel can halt this now

Oona King in Gaza
Thursday June 12, 2003
The Guardian

The no man's land separating Israel from the Gaza Strip gives way to what can only be described as desecrated land. Razor wire and crushed buildings line the route. Torn slabs of concrete look like tattered cardboard on a rubbish heap. In front of us two Israeli tanks block our path. Behind us, the border will shortly be sealed to prevent Palestinian reprisals for the helicopter attack launched hours earlier against the extremist Hamas leader, Abdul-Aziz al-Rantissi - who is still alive. A Palestinian woman and her young child, on their way to hospital, are dead, and 35 are injured.
Later that afternoon we hurriedly leave the building we are in when a missile lands nearby. As two British MPs travelling with Christian Aid, myself and Jenny Tonge are alarmed. For Gaza residents this is business as usual. More than 1 million Palestinians live on this tiny piece of land (smaller than the Isle of Wight) - more than three-quarters of on less than £1.30 a day. Life below the poverty line for these Palestinians contrasts with the 5,000 Israeli settlers who occupy one-third of the land and enjoy watered gardens, first world housing and protection by the Israeli army. This protection means Palestinians wait for hours - sometimes days - at Israeli checkpoints, trying to find work or get access to essential services such as medical care.

The sun is setting on Gaza. From my hotel balcony I hear demonstrations in the street below. It occurs to me that I can put on a headscarf and slip into the crowd as a Palestinian. No one will guess I'm Jewish, still less that I'm a British MP. The sounds lead me to the hospital where Rantissi is being treated. Cars rush into the compound, horns blaring, people hanging out of windows. A man carries an injured girl into the hospital. But most of the Palestinians just stand waiting. They wait for Israelis to stamp their permits, and they wait for a Palestinian state. They are no different from us: deny them human rights and they will respond with unacceptable terrorist violence.

That's what Jews did when they set up the Stern Gang and blew up the King David Hotel in the 1940s. Ninety-four people died. The leader of that terrorist group, on Britain's "most wanted" list, went on to be the Israeli prime minister. Many Jews revere him, even while they abhor the terrorism that ruins their lives today. Israelis must be freed from terrorism - such as yesterday's horrific attack in Jersualem. All terrorism, not least Palestinian terrorism, is abhorrent. But it is also predictable. When the Israeli government chose Tuesday to launch an attack in Gaza (as it did again after yesterday's bombing), it cannot have been ignorant of its effect on the peace process and the certainty of Palestinian reprisals.

The original founders of the Jewish state could surely not imagine the irony facing Israel today: in escaping the ashes of the Holocaust, they have incarcerated another people in a hell similar in its nature - though not its extent - to the Warsaw ghetto.

Any visitor to the Palestinian ghetto can see the signs: residents are sealed off and live under curfew; the authorities view torture as acceptable and use collective punishment as a means of control; soldiers drive families from their homes, confiscate property and demolish neighbourhoods; unemployment runs in places at 80%, and utilities such as water are withheld; the economy has "client" status, and is subservient to the occupiers in every way.

As the more powerful side in the dispute, Israel must break the cycle of violence, comply with UN resolution 242 and withdraw from territories occupied in 1967. As the occupying power, Israel must uphold the fourth Geneva convention and end all collective punishments. Illegal settlements must be dismantled. Repair of water, sewage, and other essential infrastructure should take place immediately.

Just under 80% of all water resources in the West Bank and Gaza Strip are redirected from Palestinians to Israelis. The international community has to recognise the scale of the humanitarian disaster facing Palestinians and George Bush must put greater pressure on Sharon to give meaning to the road map. Yes, there are two sides to every story. But no story should hold within it the horrors I have witnessed here, so similar in detail to humiliations suffered by the Jews.

I have sadly come to the conclusion that, given the scale of the atrocities and collective punishment waged by the Israelis against the Palestinians, I have no choice but to boycott Israeli products. On reflection, whether Jewish or not, you might decide to do the same.

· Oona King is Labour MP for Bethnal Green and Bow

[Dizardak]

It's bullshit to compare a ostrasized, persecuted, dying people with a bunch of aristicratic white settlers that feld England cause they didn't want to pay taxes and wanted to be able to divorce their wives. In agreement with what what Rob said before, the Jews were re-claiming a land that was once theirs not outright stealing a land that they considered "uncivilized".

[empath]

Which isn't to say that the Israeli's should leave. They are there now and the people living there now have as much right to the land as the Palestineans who were forced to leave.

But they need to stop the settlements and either grant the Palestineans full civil rights as Israeli citizens, or they need to give the Palestineans their own country.

At this point its a civil and human rights issue. The palestineans are in such awful shape and they deserve better treatment simply because they are human beings. The vast majority of them are not terrorists and don't support terrorism, they just want to be left alone.

[empath]

Originally posted by Dizardak
It's bullshit to compare a ostrasized, persecuted, dying people with a bunch of aristicratic white settlers that feld England cause they didn't want to pay taxes and wanted to be able to divorce their wives. In agreement with what what Rob said before, the Jews were re-claiming a land that was once theirs not outright stealing a land that they considered "uncivilized".

They hadn't been in Israel for hundreds of years. They had no right to claim it back. Or do you think the Italians should also be able to reclaim it? Or the Babylonians, or the Egyptians, or the Canaanites who were forced out by the Hebrews?

[rajdeep]

:werd: And that's what needs to be acknowledged and impressed upon - that the Palestinians on the whole don't support terrorism. But if they have to deal with missile-firing Apache helicopters they'll be damned if they offer a non-violent response.

[easysl]

I believe the pre 1967 war boarders would be a good starting point

[Dizardak]

Originally posted by empath


They hadn't been in Israel for hundreds of years. They had no right to claim it back. Or do you think the Italians should also be able to reclaim it? Or the Babylonians, or the Egyptians, or the Canaanites who were forced out by the Hebrews?

i was really just agreeing with rob on that point. my main poin was the beginning of that post and that fact that it's ubsurd to comepare the jews with the english settlers. did u think that nothing should have been done after WW2? should we just have let the jews go back to being foreigners in their homelands???

[empath]

The Native Americans WERE slaughtered in vast numbers by the Europeans. Would you be happy with them coming back to your home to reclaim their homeland?

[rajdeep]

That was a powerful article Darragh. Thanks!!

When the Israeli government chose Tuesday to launch an attack in Gaza (as it did again after yesterday's bombing), it cannot have been ignorant of its effect on the peace process and the certainty of Palestinian reprisals.

[empath]

Originally posted by Dizardak
should we just have let the jews go back to being foreigners in their homelands???

Everyone is a foreigner in their homeland. Racially pure states are as bad an idea now as they were when Hitler tried it.

There is no such thing as a 'homeland'. Its a fiction, and a dangerous one.

[Dizardak]

that's your opinion john and i respect your intellegence I just totally disagree with you here. I feel like if no action was taken to give the jews a place to call home and a land of refuge that there would be no more jews.

[velvetgoldmire]

A couple of years ago, didn't Isreal propose a peace agreement, which the Palestinian leader rejected before he even looked at it, because it met 90% and not 100% of his demands?


I don't understand why people can't understand that there have been tragic losses on both sides! Isrealies, Palestinians... THEY'RE FUCKING HUMAN!!! Both sides are at fault. Neither can come to the other's terms, and if they can't come to an agreement, then clear all the people out of the land, blow the physical soil off the face of the Earth, so nobody can live there. Problem solved!

The original question is does Isreal have the right to launch missles at civilians? No. Are both sides at fault? Yes. They're gonna do an eye-for-an-eye until they all go blind.

[velvetgoldmire]

Originally posted by Dizardak
that's your opinion john and i respect your intellegence I just totally disagree with you here. I feel like if no action was taken to give the jews a place to call home and a land of refuge that there would be no more jews.
:werd: Sit down and talk with one of my family members who lived during that time if you don't think Aaron is right.

[empath]

its not that i don't understand why they felt a jewish homeland was necessary.

I just don't think that this was the way to do it. Too much history in one place. Why couldn't they just make a Jewish Homeland in Long Island or something?

[Dizardak]

LI would be fine with me, but i'm not on the UN...ask them

[velvetgoldmire]

Isreal is considered to be the holy land by Jews. Always has been. It holds a very special meaning for our people. The place drips with the history of the Hebrews. That's why they would choose Isreal over Long Island.

Not saying that it's not special to the Palestinians too. That is the issue. It holds a special place for both cultures.

[Dizardak]

god i wish i could remember some of the other places they were considering besides the land now known as isreal. damn me and my poor short term memory :spliff:

[empath]

Russia had offered them some land at one point...

[empath]

Originally posted by velvetgoldmire
Isreal is considered to be the holy land by Jews. Always has been. It holds a very special meaning for our people. The place drips with the history of the Hebrews. That's why they would choose Isreal over Long Island.

Not saying that it's not special to the Palestinians too. That is the issue. It holds a special place for both cultures.

This is exactly why Religion should stay out of Politics...When you start talking about Holy Lands, you get out of the realm of rational discussion, and the possibility of compromise vanishes.

[Dizardak]

Originally posted by Dizardak
Religion is the cause of all the worlds problems.

quoting yourself is a faux-pau but i felt it relavent here

[JunglystPimp]

How does one justify the killing of Palestinians with missiles?


-target practice?

-don't want to waste all of the governments hard-earned (stolen) money

-people? what people? we were aiming for strategic locations. what is that you say? there were people there? oh, that's tragic. wrong place at the wrong time.

-they're not people, the infidels.

i'm sure there are other ways one COULD justify the killing of people with missiles, but I have too much to do today.

[descent]

Originally posted by Dizardak
[Organized] Religion is the cause of all the worlds problems. :werd:

The Israelis have done horrible things. The Palenstians have done horrible things. Neither has the moral high ground IMO. The unauthorized Israeli settlements and the Israeli "reprisals" need to go. Arafat should be killed and Hamas destroyed (not by missile attacks but by real law enforcement/intelligence ops) and then a Palenstinian state could have a chance.

Push come to shove, I'd side with Israel but if there is going to be peace, Israel has to play the role of the bigger person.

[zartan]

i don't know. i think an organized government like israel has a moral responsibility not to meet evil with more crushing evil. i can definitely see how the palestinians can feel like they have absolutely no choice but terrorism. this of course does not excuse terrorism - far from it - but israel's overwhelming military superiority and demonstrated willingness to violate UN resolutions and obvious human rights IMO is obviously going to lead to this kind of thing.

The American Indian example is a great one. I had never quite thought of it that way (the fact that they attacked women and children and were "terrorists" too).

[Viraj]

going back to the whole UN giving Isreal to the Jews..

I remember another world problem that came out of a european country dividing up land.
When England was pulling out of India, they decided to split the land into India and Pakistan.
Obviously England knew what was best for the region and made a good decision that resulted in decades of war.
The western countries have always decided that they have the best interest of the world in mind, and then make arbitrary decisions that end in bloodshed.

I'm not saying that at this point we should do nothing, but maybe we should remember that we are usually the cause of the problems in the first place when we go in and try to fix situations.

[easysl]

Originally posted by descent


Arafat should be killed

An American calling for the assasination of an elected president, when your own president was placed in power by the Supreme Court and has waged war in the name of democracy. - Oh the irony

[rajdeep]

How could we NOT side with the Israelis: :rolleyes:

White House Backs Israeli Response (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52419-2003Jun12.html?nav=hptop_ts)
The Bush administration signaled strong support for Israel's crackdown on militant groups yesterday, effectively abandoning its earlier criticism of the government of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon that had sparked an outcry from lawmakers on Capitol Hill and pro-Israel lobbying groups.

Arab officials placed the blame for the renewed violence on Israeli's botched assassination attempt Tuesday of a senior leader of the Islamic Resistance Movement, known as Hamas. "We were very close to an agreement with the Palestinians to end the suicide bombings," said a senior Arab diplomat who spoke to Powell yesterday. "But every time we come close to an agreement, the Israelis launch a disproportionate attack."

The Israeli attack dismayed U.S. officials, and President Bush said Tuesday he was "troubled" by it. But his comments infuriated Israel's supporters, especially after a suicide bus bombing in Jerusalem on Wednesday killed 16 Israelis.

Administration officials said yesterday that they were not backing off their earlier criticism of the Israeli attack. But they refused to repeat it, even as Israel launched several more strikes against Hamas militants.

Edward S. Walker Jr., president of the Middle East Institute and a former State Department official, said, "Two people have been weakened by this -- Abu Mazen and the president of the United States."

The president "makes a statement and it rolls off Sharon's back," Walker said. "He has a credibility problem."

"People in the region see Bush as backing away and not standing up for the road map," he said. "The question is whether the president is serious or not."

[rajdeep]

And a final wording from an OpEd, though one needs to read the entire piece to get an idea/understanding of how Israel (since Sharon's time) has disrailed the peace process:

Diplomacy by Assassination (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52821-2003Jun12.html)
Abdel Aziz Rantisi, the Hamas leader Sharon ordered assassinated, is a media personality who lives a highly public life. Had it chosen to, Israel could have targeted him at any time in the past year, when no peace process was underway. So why did the helicopters strike six days after the Aqaba summit? The most logical explanation is that the violent and entirely predictable consequences were exactly what Israel's prime minister wanted.

And I suppose the Bush administration would like to side with such a supporter of peace... :rolleyes:

[El Magnifico]

Time for some comedy-relief:

WEST BANK — Palestinian stone throwers disclosed for the first time Friday, that due to a gross miscalculation of their arsenal, they had finally run out of rocks and would be forced to come up with more inventive ways of continuing their Intifada on the Jewish state of Israel.


“I reached down to grab a rock this morning and all I got was a handful of sand,” said one Palestinian militant who asked to remain anonymous. “I tried throwing it but it just blew back in my face. Man, It really stung my eyes!”


Militant groups were quick to cast blame for the depletion of their arsenal on a group of teenage “stone hogs” who exhausted the supply by throwing indiscriminately at passing cars, various neighborhood bullies and the occasional stray dog.


Others accused a local housewife of wasting the rocks by building “a cute little gravel path” leading up to a backyard bird feeder.


“The important thing is we find an another resource as quickly as possible, said Palestinian militant leader, Achmed Ashanni. “Meanwhile, we’re alternating between spitting on the Israelis and throwing feces at them. We really need to find some alternatives quick."


Leaders of two radical groups, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, not wanting show signs of military unreadiness, decided to immediately unleash a precious cargo of snack-sized, tapioca pudding containers stolen from an Israeli middle school cafeteria.


According to reports, the pudding has great hangtime and can be thrown almost as far as rocks. Plus, it’s really impressive when it explodes all over enemy clothing.

I do have to admit, It really kills me to throw the tapioca Snack Packs," Ashanni said. "Those goddamn Jews really know their pudding.”

[genna]

Originally posted by empath

But they need to stop the settlements and either grant the Palestineans full civil rights as Israeli citizens, or they need to give the Palestineans their own country.




And this is where the problem is. Neither is a viable solution.

Solution 1. Israel gives Palestineans a full citizens right: Result, in any election, Palestinians win(there are a lot more of them) and Israel seizes to exist as a Jewish state, after that believe me that there will be procecutions of Jews there.

Solution 2. Palestineans get their own country(something that Israel had offered before and now): Result, HAMAS, Islamic Jihad, ect.. don't want that, they want all of Palestine. So they will continue fighting against Israel from a new country now. This will eventually lead to Israel attacking that new country and annexing it once again. Back to square 0.

The diffierence between Israel and Hamas, PLO, etc is end purpose.

While there are plenty Isralies that want all palestinians dead, they are controlled by laws and goverment. HUGE majority of Israly populations are quite fine to coexist with Palestinians in 2 different states(details differ, of course).

Most Palestinians probably are fine with that too. However, there is a large number of them that want total distruction of Israel. Just so you know, HAMAS has a wider support among Plestinians then PLO and Arafat. And nobody seem to be able or want to control Hamas.

So there, in short, it's a MESS, nobody is right, nobody is wrong. All a matter of point of view. And there is no solution in site.

[dreality]

Originally posted by El Magnifico
Time for some comedy-relief:

“I reached down to grab a rock this morning and all I got was a handful of sand,” said one Palestinian militant who asked to remain anonymous. “I tried throwing it but it just blew back in my face. Man, It really stung my eyes!”





LOL:delirious:

[genna]

Originally posted by Viraj
going back to the whole UN giving Isreal to the Jews..

I remember another world problem that came out of a european country dividing up land.
When England was pulling out of India, they decided to split the land into India and Pakistan.
Obviously England knew what was best for the region and made a good decision that resulted in decades of war.
The western countries have always decided that they have the best interest of the world in mind, and then make arbitrary decisions that end in bloodshed.

I'm not saying that at this point we should do nothing, but maybe we should remember that we are usually the cause of the problems in the first place when we go in and try to fix situations.

Actually England didn't split India, that was a result of a civil war in India after England left.

But your other points are quite valid. Brits always know what is better for the rest of the world ..end sarcazm

[genna]

Originally posted by easysl


An American calling for the assasination of an elected president...
So what else is new?

We have no problems calling for assasination or removal of elected presidents when we don't like them.

Hussain
Castro
Anyone in Easter Europe a few years back.
Noriega

There are plenty more.

On the home front... Kennedys, Lincoln, Reagan... all were assasinated

[descent]

Originally posted by easysl
An American calling for the assasination of an elected president, when your own president was placed in power by the Supreme Court and has waged war in the name of democracy. - Oh the irony Hey if our president is an evil SOB, can't I be one? :evilred:

[koolaidluva]

I wish they would get OVER IT!! Palestine would get a State, The HOLY land could be shared...Organized Ancient Azz Religion:nixo: its a real shame, and Isreal should have know that going after the leader of Hamas would bring crazy retaliation, now there just asking for sombody to seriously go after sharon, Religon should be accepted as a philosophy,i wish people could think for themselves, but i see why there is conflict

[Biodigit]

Originally posted by genna

Actually England didn't split India, that was a result of a civil war in India after England left.

i would be interested to see any links or documentations regarding your quote.

[superkool]

Originally posted by Dizardak
It's bullshit to compare a ostrasized, persecuted, dying people with a bunch of aristicratic white settlers that feld England cause they didn't want to pay taxes and wanted to be able to divorce their wives. In agreement with what what Rob said before, the Jews were re-claiming a land that was once theirs not outright stealing a land that they considered "uncivilized".

very interesting that you a jew would say that..let me ask you this....do you read your torah?

lets go into WHY the jews left the holy land?

anybody?anybody?

ok i'll go

the jews were put into exile from the holy land by GOD himself and told to never return UNTILL he let them return.......now it could be me but i dont think god was on the un board that gave the jews back the land...i could be wrong though


the jews were exiled from there lands for thousands of years and never tried to get there lands back....why?

because it is against everything being jewish stands for...it even says so in there bible...

of course the jews were persecuted in other lands....the lord told them they would be..it was part of the deal....maybe you guys dont know the jewish bible or how they came to leave there great homeland......lets investigate shall we?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into exile. From that time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition to establish a Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere throughout the world. Rather, we are obligated to be loyal to the nations under whose protection we dwell.


from jewsagainstzionism.com

now lets look in there bible where it states this shall we?

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The true Jewish position on Zionism and the state called Israel is found in the Scriptures in the Talmud and in the oral traditions transmitted to us by our parents and teachers.



At the outset of the Jews' exile to Babylonia, the Prophet Jeremiah, in chapter 29 of his book proclaimed G-d's message to all the exiled…Verse seven reads, "Seek out the welfare of the city to which I have exiled you and pray for it to the Almighty, for through its welfare will you have welfare." This has been a cornerstone of Jewish "foreign policy" how to behave in the lands of the nations throughout our ensuing exiles till this very day.



There Jeremiah adds in the name of G-d (verses 8 and 9), "Do not let your false prophets among you and your sorcerers seduce you, do not head your dreamers which you cause them to dream. For they speak falsely to you in My name. I did not send them." This too has applied to all the would-be misleaders of Jewry whether they presented themselves as prophets or as sorcerers or as dreamers of national aspirations.



King Solomon in Song of Songs thrice adjured the "daughters of Jerusalem" not to arouse or bestir the love until it is ready." The Talmud explains That we have been foresworn, by three strong oaths, not to ascend to the Holy Land as a group using force, not to rebel against the governments of countries in which we live, and not by our sins, to prolong the coming of moshiach; as is written in Tractate Kesubos 111a .



Throughout the seventy years of the Babylonian exile, throughout the 200 years of the Hellenic exile and throughout the 1917 since the destruction of G-d's Holy House, we have steadfastly maintained our loyalty to G-d and have not transgressed His oaths. And we have prayed for the welfare of the cities and the countries of our host nations that did not oppress us, and in their welfare we indeed always found ours.



Whoever violates Jeremiah's principles or Solomon's oaths immediately imperils the welfare of Jews locally and elsewhere in the world.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maimonides, Iggeres Teiman – Letter to Yemen

[Maimonides wrote this Letter to the Jewish Community of Yemen almost 1,000 years ago]



And as King Solomon knew with divine inspiration that the Jewish People would face the consequences of this and that suffering would come upon them, and warned the Jewish People not to do this (i.e. violate the Three Oaths), and in a metaphorical way made them swear not to commit these acts, as it is written in Song of Songs, 3,5: I made you swear Daughters of Jerusalem by the deer and gazelles of the field should you arouse or awaken love until it is so desired.



Therefore, you, dear brethren, must accept the Oath and do not attempt to arouse the love until the proper time when the Alm-ghty shall remember us and you with his trait of mercy to gather his portion from Exile to behold his glory at his holy Temple and redeem us from the Valley of the shadow of Death where he has placed us, thereby removing the darkness from our eyes and the fog from our hearts. He will then fulfill in our days and in yours the verse from Isaiah 9:1 The nation wandering in darkness shall see a great Light, and a Light shall shine on those residing in the land of the shadow of death. At that time G-d shall darken the eyes of all those who rise up against us, and fulfill the verse from Isaiah 9:2 Verily darkness shall cover the land and fog shall cover nations, but the light of G-d shall shine upon you, and you shall display his honor.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Maharal of Prague (Rabbi Betzalel Lowy who lived in the 17th century) explained that the prohibition of violating the Three Oaths applies even if the other nations force the Jewish People to do so.



In addition, he wrote in his book Netzach Yisroel (Chapter 24) that these Oaths may not be modified so as to affect the decree of Exile, and he expanded on the description in the Midrashic text on Song of Songs 2:18.



“Even if the nations wanted to kill the Jews with terrible torture, the Jews are forbidden to change the applicability of the Oaths. This is relevant to every one of these oaths and must be understood.” Therefore, not only is it forbidden to leave the Exile even with the permission of the nations, but even if they force the Jewish People to do so under pain of death, it is forbidden to violate these Oaths in the same way it is required to give up one’s life rather than accept another religion.



Even during the forced conversions under the kingdom of Portugal in the late 15th century it was forbidden to violate the Oath.



Rabbi Avraham Galanti, who other rabbis described as outstanding in his level of holiness, and who was a student of the great kabbalist Rabbi Moshe Cordovero in the 16th century, explained aspects of the Three Oaths in his book Zechus Avos [Merit of the Patriarchs] where he recounts how some Jews in Portugal wanted to revolt against the kingdom rather than submit to forced conversion. A rabbi quoted the verses from Song of Songs to the people who wanted to revolt, and pointed to the Talmudic tractate Ketuboth p. 111 which states that G-d made the Jewish People take three Oaths – one was that they should not rebel against G-d by rebelling against the nations. Thereafter the Jews submitted to death rather than forced conversion. Although the description in Ketuboth does not say that the Oaths involve directly rebelling against G-d, it is clear that the very violation of these Oaths is rebellion against G-d himself.


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interesting, so we now know that the jews are not allowed by there own bible to have a holy land untill god gives it back to them...it is also nice to note that they lived with this for thousands of years........untill zionism came about in the late 1800's

interesting
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

my take on the whole thing? who cares if some book says this was your holy land 2,000 years ago...it was the arabs land then...plain and simple.....shit if i found a book that was 2,000 years old that said all the land belonged to me..would you give me your house? i didn't think so.....but nice try

in 1947 when the un gave the land to the jews...they gave less then 1/3 of the population over half(56%) of the land...does that make any sense? at all?

or lets put it like this..if you had 3 kids...would you give one kid over half the food?

right.....ok then

[empath]

Pakistan was created when Britain gave India independence in 1947. Bangladesh split off from Pakistan in 1971 in a war later...

[superkool]

ZIONISTS DO NOT REPRESENT JEWS

From the inception of the Zionist State and particularly in recent times, the impression has been created in the World that there is some connection between the State, which falsely calls itself Israel, and the Jewish people as a whole. Therefore, we who continue to uphold the never-changing tradition of the Jewish people find it proper to again clarify the following points:


A Jew is one who remains faithful to the laws of the Jewish religion, that is, the Holy Torah and its commandments.

The Jewish people became a people before they had their own land, and continued to exist as a people also after they went Into exile, because our very peoplehood is based exclusively on the Torah.

The Holy Land was given to the Jewish people on the condition that they observe the Torah and its commandments. When they failed to do this, their sovereignty over the land was taken from them, and they went into exile. From that time, we are prohibited by the Torah with a very grave prohibition to establish a Jewish independent sovereignty in the Holy Land or anywhere throughout the world. Rather, we are obligated to be loyal to the nations under whose protection we dwell.

This situation has existed for close to 2000 years when the Jewish people were dispersed throughout all corners of the world. During this time, the Jews always remained faithful to the country in which they lived.

The Jewish people are grateful to all those merciful nations which have allowed them to observe Torah and the commandments undisturbed.

From ancient times, the relations between the Jewish and Islamic peoples have always been those of peace and brotherhood, and friendship always reigned between them. The proof of this is the fact that for centuries, in all the Arab lands, hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in honor and amidst mutual esteem.

Jews throughout all generations yearned to grace the sacred soil of the Holy Land and to live there. However, their sole purpose was to fulfill the commandments dependent upon the land and to absorb Its holiness. Never, G-d forbid, did they have any nationalist or sovereign intent whatsoever which, as mentioned above, is forbidden to us. Indeed, also here in the Holy Land, our fathers lived in neighborly harmony with the Palestinian residents of the land, helping one another, to mutual benefit.

Until about two hundred years ago, the vast majority of Jews observed the Torah and the commandments in entirety. Jewry's leaders were Torah scholars, who directed the people according to the Torah. They were loyal citizens in the host nations where they dwelled and to the local laws. They prayed for the welfare of their respective governments. To our sorrow, at that time a small number of Jews slowly left their observance of Torah and commandments. Together with this, they began to deride the spiritual leadership of their people. This assimilation was the basis upon which, one hundred years ago, the ideology of Zionism was born. Its founders were assimilated Jews who had abandoned the Torah.

Immediately at the founding of the Zionist movement, masses of Jews under the leadership of their Rabbis, launched a heavy battle against Zionism. Their attack was directed not only at the non-religious Zionist idea, but rather, primarily at its opposition to the Torah-ordained path that Jewry must follow while in exile. As such, the Zionists incited the nations of the world, demanding political sovereignty over the Holy Land while remaining oblivious to the resentment this would arouse In the Palestinian Arabs, the land's veteran inhabitants. As stated, the leaders of Orthodox Jewry vehemently opposed the movement with all force.

The Zionists refused to heed the voice of the Rabbis and Torah authority. They persisted in their ways until they succeeded in influencing the British government to issue the Balfour Declaration concerning the "establishment of a national home for the Jews in the land of Israel." To our great sorrow, from that point on began the deterioration of the good relations between the Jews and the Arab inhabitants of the land. This occurred because the Arab people understood that the Zionists wished to seize rulership from them. In addition, the Arab people had suspicions as if the Jewish people wished to seize control of the Temple Mount and other similar sites. Matters worsened as a result.

The Jewish leadership of that time saw it as proper to clarify before the Arab leaders that the Torah-true Jews had no desire whatsoever for sovereignty, and that our desire was to continue to live in peace with the Arabs, as we had always done. The leader of the G-d-fearing Jewish community at that time, Rabbi Yoseph Chaim Zonnenfeld. of blessed memory, organized a delegation in July of 24' which visited King Hussein and his sons Faisal the King of Iraq and the Amir Abdullah In order to lucidly present to them the position of the G-d-fearing Jewish community. The Jewish delegation clarified unequivocally that Torah Jewry is totally opposed to the Zionist sovereignty over the Holy Land. It Is worth noting that the delegation was received with great honor. They were even assured that all Arab lands were completely open to Jews, however, on the condition that the Jews do not demand political rights. This condition also applied to the Holy Land. One of the members of the Jewish delegation, Professor Yisroel Yaakov De Haan, paid with his life for his participation.

Torah Jewry protests at every opportunity against the Zionist rule over the Holy Land, and the Zionist rebellion against the neighboring nations. Torah Jewry has condemned the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians, the land's veteran inhabitants who have been driven from their homes and properties. The Zionists' barbaric and violent deeds are absolutely antithetical to the essence of the Jewish people.

Torah Jewry has never ever recognized the Zionist state. Since the Zionists succeeding in establishing their state, Torah Jewry has continuously announced to the world that the Zionists do not represent the Jewish people, and that the name "Israel" that they use is a forgery. For as has been stated above, it is forbidden to us from the Torah to rebel against the nations, and all sovereignty by us is prohibited. Rather, we await the days when all the world will recognize the sovereignty of the Creator, and the words of the prophet Isaiah will yet be fulfilled: "And they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. No nation will lift its sword against any other, nor will they learn warfare anymore."

Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews have refrained to this day from taking any funds from the Zionist regime, whether for their educational institutions, synagogues or other benefits. Obviously, they do not participate in the Zionist elections, whether for the "Knesset" or for the municipality. We do not serve in their army, and we even avoid speaking in the Hebrew language that the Zionists Invented. (incidentally, this is not the holy and true Hebrew language in which the Bible is written.) All this is done because Torah Jewry does not recognize the Zionist regime, which Is against the Torah and against humanity.

Lately, the question has once again arisen concerning the Temple Mount and sovereignty over it. Thus, we wish to state unequivocally: a) In our time, it is a severe Torah prohibition for any Jew to set foot on any part of the Temple Mount area. b) The Jewish people have no claim whatsoever to sovereignty over this holy site, which is under Islamic authority, nor over any other holy site. Rabbi Zonenfeld was once asked, "is it true, that the Rabbi prefers an non-Jewish government over all of the Holy Land"? Rabbi Zonenfeld replied, "if King Hussein would rule over Palestine, the holiness of the Holy Land would not be diminished to even to an Iota degree". We yearningly await G-d's great day, when He will return His Divine Presence to Zion, restoring the holy city to its former holiness and glory as in days of old, to be a light to the peoples and the nations.

The Zionists have no right of any sovereignty over even one inch of the Holy Land. They do not represent the Jewish people in any way whatsoever. They have no right to speak in the name of the Jewish people. Therefore, their words, declarations and actions are not in any way representative of the Jewish people. This is because the Zionists' seizing of power over the Holy Land is antithetical to Jewish law, and also because the Zionists do not behave like Jews at all rather, they desecrate the sanctity of the land.

We once again clarify that it is our desire to live in peace with our Arab and Palestinian neighbors, as we did before the Zionist revolution, and as Jews all over the world till today live, accepting the yoke of rulership of their host nation, with complete loyalty. Our sole desire is to serve our G-d and to fulfill His commandments with a perfect heart and to delight in the radiance of the sanctity of the Land.

[empath]

In the introduction to "Nothing Sacred: The Truth about Judaism," author Doug Rushkoff explains when the early '90s Internet revolution turned into the greed-driven, dot-com rush of the late '90s, he found himself in an intellectual bind. "How could I still promote the empowering side of interactive media without pumping up a Ponzi scheme that was destined for casualties?" he writes. His answer was to turn to Judaism, not only his cultural and spiritual roots, but also what he describes as the original religion of media literacy.

Rushkoff, a self-described lapsed Jew, spent two years getting literate in Judaism by traveling around the country attending synagogues, reading the Torah and talking with Jews across the cultural and political spectrum. The result is a book in which he places Judaism within a modern context for his generation. He also argues that the religion is on the brink of becoming irrelevant because its most core value of open-ended inquiry has been obscured by an obsession with self-preservation and idolatry.

Last week, the United Jewish Appeal center in New York pulled an interview with Rushkoff off the organization's Web site, arguing that his questions about Israel were too controversial. Recently, I sat down with Rushkoff in the East Village of Manhattan to discuss how the incident has proved his point about the religion's mainstream, the marketing of so-called "Jewish chic" to 20- and 30-somethings, and what Judaism at its core means to him today.

RLH: What did you question about Israel that upset the UJA?

I'm very gentle. I preface any discussion about Israel by saying that I don't want anyone to think that I don't think Israel should be there. I do believe that Israel should there and I love Israel, but now I want to talk about whether or not we can even talk about Israel. I'm not saying we shouldn't support Israel using Torah, but what does it do to our relationship with Torah? What does it do to our relationship to God when we say God invented the Nation State? Should we use the story of Exodus to support our claim to this Nation State or does it hurt our relationship to the story of Exodus if we're using Torah to prove that we own a piece of land? Did God come up with the Nation State or was it the Treaty of Versailles?

This experience with the UJA ties into your whole criticism about mainstream Judaism.

Judaism as I see it is the invention of conversation and a way of conversing about typical things. What are we here for? How do we deal with one another? I think it's become too concretized. I think Jews have idols now and I think Israel has become an idol. That's a problem for Judaism and it's a problem for Israel. If we want a living nation, we have to find ways to support and nourish the living nation. The worst thing for the preservation of the religion and the preservation of that nation is this idolatrous relationship to Torah and to Israel.

What's your Jewish background?

I grew up in Queens, Larchmont and Scarsdale. My family was classical Reform. I'm circumcised. I got Bar Mitvahed. We did Passover. We did Hanukkah. Unfortunately, the way Reform Judaism works is that you're done with Jewish education after your Bar Mitzvah, and then you don't really come back to it until you're married and have a kid. Because I'm a thinker and writer, I've thought about spirituality and religion throughout and my work has been informed by a true Jewish outlook which is iconoclastic, towards literacy and intellectual inquiry.

Why do you think that a lot of lapsed Jews have turned away from Judaism?

It's become very closed off, racist and ethnocentric. Fundamentalists are now running this religion. Most people like me haven't tried to do anything officially Jewish because we've thrown out the baby with the bathwater. We say the fundamentalists are in charge. The last place you're going to have an intelligent conversation about God or religion or Torah or Israel is in a Jewish organization because they're too afraid to talk about it.

So then what is Judaism to you now?

Iconoclasm, monotheism and social justice. It's the same thing it was. The only difference between before I wrote the book and now, is that I think of synagogue as more of an impediment to the practice of Judaism.

Judaism was not meant to be a religion. It was meant to be an ongoing process by which we wean ourselves from religion. Judaism is a way of getting God out of the way so that we take care of each other. Judaism is of the contention that human beings can be adults. That we don't have to be children in front of our God, but that we can be responsible. The reason that Judaism was so radical and illegal in the beginning was because the notion that human beings make a difference was against their religion. Gods were responsible for everything. You had to worship your God and then you got rain or you got sun or you got crops. The Israelites said if there is God then Gods are important but human beings are actually part of the equation. That's not what Judaism is about right now.

What is practicing Judaism, if you're not going to temple?

Last night I sat with 20 Jews around a table and we argued the weekly Parsha, the section of Torah that came up that week. We sat in the ground floor of the New York University Center for Jewish Life. Judaism is happening at this table as we argue about it. I think it has to happen in homes. Real Judaism will be an underground phenomenon because Jewish institutions have more to fear from Judaism now then they have to gain, which is sad.

You also argue that mainstream Jewish organization's rejection of interfaith marriage is a bad thing for Judaism.

The fact that fighting assimilation and fighting intermarriage is at the top of the agenda of the money givers of the institution of Judaism is a problem. I believe that intermarriage should be looked at more intelligently. Judaism is not a race. Judaism is a people who subscribe to an idea. When people talk about losing the purity of the Jewish gene, it's Hitler talk. The inquisitioners are the ones who talked about a Jewish race. Instead of warning people in various forms of media that non-Jews are dirty and won't raise your children right and you shouldn't go on dates with them, we should look instead at how we could be more influential in getting intermarried couples to incorporate Judaism into their lives.

When we are an unwelcoming, ethnocentric, closed-minded place, why would any intermarried couple want to be a part of it? I'm begging to be a part of it. I'm begging to set a place at the table for those of us who want have a conversation about whether God is a creature that gave us Israel as a piece of land or whether there are better ways to support our connection to Israel. That's not even up for discussion.

What do you think of something like Heeb magazine, which is trying to revive Judaism for young people?

I've got problems with that mode of Jewish self-expression. It's funded and appreciated by the same people who are censoring me. It's seen as the last-ditch attempt to bring in 20-somethings by any means necessary. It's not creating conversations. It's making Judaism cool and hip like MTV, but it's like Al Jolson in blackface. We're appropriating hip hop culture – the matzah on the turntable – in order to look cool. By trying to make Judaism look hip and trendy is communicating that we don't believe that Judaism is intrinsically cool.

Which is where the idea of what you're calling "Open Source Judaism" comes from, right?

Anyone who wants to do Judaism should have access to Judaism. Judaism is not just something that you do, it's something you enact. You've got to learn the code in order to alter it. The angry Orthodox reviewers have this picture of me as Jack Horner in a corner with a Matzah ball on my spoon. This book calls for an amount of learning that most Jews wouldn't want to do. They think that is uneducated because I can do yoga and call it Judaism.

Speaking of that, why do you think so many so-called lapsed Jews turn to Buddhism and other spiritualities, like yoga?

Most young intelligent Jews are turning to Buddhism and Hinduism because Judaism is no longer offering them a path of inquiry. Judaism is now offering idols. The idol of temple. The idol of Israel. I'm not saying Israel should be destroyed. I'm not saying that Jews should be killed. What I'm saying is that Jews are turning away from Judaism because in the expression of centralized Judaism all they see is Zionism and temple. They want a spiritual path which involves the engagement of the intelligent individual.

Explain your transition from looking at media culture to Judaism.

Judaism is a religion about media literacy. The way you get in is that you have a Bar Mitzvah, which is a demonstration that you can read and think intelligently about it. Judaism has been dedicated to transparency, which is another big issue in the media space. It has to be as easy to express yourself as it is to receive the expressions of someone else. I got interested in media because of interactivity. The 20-year hegemony of a top-down media is now being over turned and it's now becoming a conversation space where we are smashing our sacred cows and people are becoming intelligent and literate.

That is the same thing that happened in the Exodus story, where a hand-me-down pre-existing religion is transformed into Judaism, where we all argue around a table about what God is and what we are going to believe? The transition from television to Usenet is the transition from the idolatrous religions to rabbinic arguing Judaism. I felt like what I had been doing in media, the Internet and children's education, is applying Judaism. Then I looked back at Judaism and thought Judaism needs it more than any of these fields.

So what has this book taught you about your Jewish path?

I am going to abandon organized Judaism in America because I'm finding it much more likely to meet people to engage with about Judaism away from that. I'm probably going to move toward the Interfaith movement in my own spiritual life. The only difference between me when I wrote the book and me now is I no longer believe that the safeguards built into Judaism to prevent idol worship and ethnocentrism are powerful enough to prevent it. I see Judaism driving itself off a cliff.

[empath]

I really don't want to turn this into a while anti-jewish thing... its religious fanaticism on both sides that is causing this problem..

I just thought it shed some light on how Judaism doesn't necessarily support Israel, and how the whole Zionist movement is distorting what Judaism has historically been about...

Fundamentalism is just fucking up the entire world right now, and its unfortunate..

[Bioteknik]

Originally posted by empath
There were 60 million black slaves in this country, should we give african americans the right to kick the egyptians out of Egypt?

not egypt, but you know of liberia don't you?

[empath]

Yeah, and that worked out really well, too :)

[Bioteknik]

oops.. bad example.. co-worker is a refuge from liberia

[Biodigit]

Originally posted by empath
Pakistan was created when Britain gave India independence in 1947. Bangladesh split off from Pakistan in 1971 in a war later...
Thats the impression i was under. but i didnt know what that one person was talking about...when he/she said "Actually England didn't split India, that was a result of a civil war in India after England left." but you are absolutely right.

[rajdeep]

So, does anyone in the Bush administration care that the "collateral damage" is escalating?

Israel strikes Gaza again (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/13/mideast/index.html)
Two Israeli Apache helicopters fired on a car in a Gaza City neighborhood Friday evening, killing at least one person and wounding 25

I suppose those 25 ppl. should be lucky that they were hit by shrapnel and at the most lost a limb.

"All of our efforts are focused on Hamas, and persuading Hamas and Islamic Jihad and other terrorist organizations that this is the time to abandon terror," U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell said Friday.

Asked Friday why he has not publicly criticized Israel's latest strikes against militants, Powell responded, "I think we are all anxious to see restraint. We understand it's important to get the terror down -- if terror goes down, then the response to terror will no longer be required."

How convenient... fits right in with the policy of using force in the "war against terrorism".

[empath]

that is such a bullshit answer.

Killing all the Palestinians would stop the terrorism, too. But that is not an acceptable response to terrorism, and neither is firing missles into crowded streets.

That is murder, pure and simple.

[rajdeep]

I honestly feel that even if the Hamas response stops, the Israeli forces will continue their assasination attempts. Sharon is a hardliner and will only rest when all the Hamas leadership is killed.

[genna]

Originally posted by Biodigit

i would be interested to see any links or documentations regarding your quote.

My bad, got my timing confused. It was partitioned by Brits.

However, as i have been reading some history on this(in lou of my error) it seems that that's what Muslims in India wanted. As far as i understand, Brits and the rest or India wanted it to remain a single state. But i may be mistaking as well.

[genna]

Originally posted by empath
that is such a bullshit answer.

Killing all the Palestinians would stop the terrorism, too. But that is not an acceptable response to terrorism, and neither is firing missles into crowded streets.

That is murder, pure and simple.

Well, that's too simplistic. Example: If Osama Bin Laden was known to be in some residential neighborhood in a country where we could not operate any special forces, do you think that many americans minded sending a few missles his way? Even though they'd know that that may kill many civilians. I doubt it. This how Israel views it.

[Scoobie-Snax]

Like everyone has said both side are equally at fault.

I seriously doubt that there will be peace anytime soon. One of the main reasons is Jerusalem.....both sides have sacred religious sites there and both sides want it for there capital city (and I doubt either side is willing to split or give it up to the other). Two, sharon and arafat.....as long as they are both in some sort of control.....there will be no peace.

Also, as someone stated earlier......hamas and groups like that want to destroy Israel no matter what happens.

I also, believe I am correct on this but if not someone who knows Islam please correct me.

Islam teaches that once a country has been taken over/occupied by muslims that it always be a muslim country and I think that is why groups like hamas and such are trying to destroy Israel (they are just doing what they believe there religion is instructing them to do).

[empath]

hello old thread!

[Tigger]

howdy!

[RYU]

Originally posted by rajdeep
Ok, so I condemn the Hamas. But more so I condemn the Israeli government. How does one come to terms with and think that it's ok to retaliate in crowded civilian populations with missiles?????

And where the F*** is the international pressure to condemn Sharon's actions? Bush is moving cautiously with "moderate" remarks on the situation? I suppose all this should be justified in the "war on terrorism"!!

:falatic:

It's a mutli-choice poll.
Israeli attack kills 7 in Gaza, Palestinian officials say (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/06/12/mideast/index.html) Great argument man. I try not to get into political discussions cause my fellow americans are some ignorant mofos.
I personally condemn BOTH of them. hate/Violence only begets more Hate/Violence. I mean someones kills Ur family of course Ur gonna end up wanting revenge. But as for Sharon shooting missles in crowded civilians. His tactics and the pressure the world goverments are putting on him is BS.

If we are the FUCKING world police.*And don't argue this shit. Cause were like the LA PD of the world. AS in Rodney King beat down time.* Like we have been on TERRORISM. Why dont we do something about this.
Sharon is a terrorist just as much as the other side. It's just he has political power and better PR and that's the way it's represented. Bush won't not back him up because Politics is a game. And if U want to survive and get ahead.
U have to be just as EVIL as terrorist

[rajdeep]

My cry is for sparing the innocent civilians being caught in the crossfire both Israeli & Palestinian alike.

[zartan]

werd. and the children that have to grow up in that environment. frankly, i feel more for the palestinian children... i work with a guy who spent a year after medical school working in the palestinian area as a volunteer doctor; it is out of control. he came into it with equivocal feelings about the whole situation but left comletely appalled at the injustice the palestinians are daily subjected to.

(not to diminish what the israelis have to put up with w/ the suicide bombers, etc...but at least their economy isn't literally an absolute joke, subjected constantly to humiliating curfews, searches, etc etc etc)

[RYU]

Originally posted by rajdeep
My cry is for sparing the innocent civilians being caught in the crossfire both Israeli & Palestinian alike. Mad PROPS bro!:thumbsup:

I'm sick of people looking to see how were different. In a negative way and then breeding hate against our differences...
Expecially RELIGION is a fucking horrible scape goat.

I know we can't all be happy go lucky people. And that's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for the murder of innocents to stop being broadcasted as colateral damage and for people to develop some humanity and sympathy for 1 another. Hate begets hate. Simple as that. And for the rest of the world not to do anything about it makes us just as Barbaric and were contributing to TERRORISM. It's a fucking joke... Politics that is.
It's really fucking sad...That is all.

[gloznthedrk]

when people stop blowing themselves up in the streets of isreal,
then isreal will stop firing missles.

i have a friend in isreal and i worry about him constantly,
its really sad what they have to deal with every day.

[koolaidluva]

But my friend, that will happen ONLY and ONLY when isreal gives Palestine its rightful land
Im soo sick of people fighting over land and shit i swear, im sick of people taking MAN MADE BOOKS THAT MAY CONTAIN SOME SPIRITUAL VALUE as the LITERAL word of " God" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :rl:

Fuckin shame is what it is...
when will humans learn to GET OVER IT!!!!

[gloznthedrk]

i think isreal was created from land that belong to egypt and another country. everyone should live peacefully in an ideal world, until that happens, compromise is what is needed.

palestinians dont want an isrealis there, not jewish, but isreali. and yes, there is a difference between jewish and isreali.

didnt isreal offer land to the palistinians? and they refused it?

isrealias should not have to get killed randomly because the palistinians arent happy with sharing land.

[RYU]

Originally posted by gloznthedrk
when people stop blowing themselves up in the streets of isreal,
then isreal will stop firing missles.

i have a friend in isreal and i worry about him constantly,
its really sad what they have to deal with every day. Um WTF?
THis shit is both of there FAULTS OK!

So it's ok for a 1 palestinian to go BLOW himself up and kill innocents.
That is a cowardly act. But then that makes it right for U to kill his entire family or just other innocents that had nothing to do with it.

I'm sorry U worry about Ur friend. But that's just the type of ignorance that helps to fuel this cycle of :rl: :skull: :rl: .

I believe both sides are WRONG in killing innocents.
And Israel has a TERRORIST as well. His name is Fat ASS Charone!:slap:

ANd for U to assume the isrealies only retaliate..U really need to watch the news some time. Try getting more than 1 perspective. That meaning go online find news from both sides. What UR seeing on US TV is Biast Pro-Isreali.

*Sigh*
GOing to lift and get out some of this tense headache now...Maybe that's what Palestine and Isreal should focus on.
Getting nice gyms were they work so hard there to tired to kill 1 another...*Sigh*

[gloznthedrk]

i do not just watch us tv. there are many other forums for international learning, alot of which i pay attention to and hear. when i see and hear young palistians talk about they want the people (anyone living in isreal) to leave and that they will continue with suicide bombings for as long as they need to, i no longer have sympathy for them.

land does not belong to anyone, ever!

[koolaidluva]

Originally posted by gloznthedrk
i do not just watch us tv. there are many other forums for international learning, alot of which i pay attention to and hear. when i see and hear young palistians talk about they want the people (anyone living in isreal) to leave and that they will continue with suicide bombings for as long as they need to, i no longer have sympathy for them.

land does not belong to anyone, ever!


werd u have good points. Land is NOT to be owned...but peepz are STOOPID............. The scary thing about the whole thing is that both sides have valid arguments. And only through compromise and the realization that man written books arent the 100% true and pure word of " God" will this compromise be made. Unfortunately people have a long azz way 2 go to get to that way of thinking.
I think Isreal did offer Palestine land, but i dont think it was exactly the "disputed" territories.
I really think that Isreal, as the " greater" power, should simply give palestine its land and dismantle all outer settlements,on the condition that the palestininan government seriously END state sponsered terrorism.
Since the Arabs defend terrorism on the premise that the Isrealies occupy their land, give them back the land that is rightfully theirs...
allow them to have an independent state. If they fuck up again...they have fucked up forever...

grrrrr

[genna]

Originally posted by koolaidluva
werd u have good points. Land is NOT to be owned...but peepz are STOOPID............. The scary thing about the whole thing is that both sides have valid arguments. And only through compromise and the realization that man written books arent the 100% true and pure word of " God" will this compromise be made. Unfortunately people have a long azz way 2 go to get to that way of thinking.
I think Isreal did offer Palestine land, but i dont think it was exactly the "disputed" territories.
I really think that Isreal, as the " greater" power, should simply give palestine its land and dismantle all outer settlements,on the condition that the palestininan government seriously END state sponsered terrorism.
Since the Arabs defend terrorism on the premise that the Isrealies occupy their land, give them back the land that is rightfully theirs...
allow them to have an independent state. If they fuck up again...they have fucked up forever...

grrrrr


this is all very reasonable. except in view of most(or at least many - esp. bombers) palestinians, Israel IS their land. I.e. it's not the "occupied territories" they want, but the whole Palestine, i.e. Israel...

[rajdeep]

I'd like to know how many Palestinians and Isarelis would support the formation of a single state with both officers vying for a common election if they'd simply cease the mutual violence and taer down those security walls?

It's a radical idea but that's the only way I see peace coming to these lands if both shared them. Pakistan and India were doing great before they were divided in 1947, imagine how strong the economy of Pakistan would be with India's support and how safe India would be with Pakistan as an ally.

[genna]

Originally posted by rajdeep
I'd like to know how many Palestinians and Isarelis would support the formation of a single state with both officers vying for a common election if they'd simply cease the mutual violence and taer down those security walls?

It's a radical idea but that's the only way I see peace coming to these lands if both shared them. Pakistan and India were doing great before they were divided in 1947, imagine how strong the economy of Pakistan would be with India's support and how safe India would be with Pakistan as an ally.

answer to that is simple: 100% palestinians and 0% isralies

There are far more arabs in palestine then jews. if all are included in elections, israel is gone

[gloznthedrk]

isreali does not mean jewish, there are alot of christian and muslim israrelis too. the palestinians want the israrelis gone, all of them, not just the jewish.

isreal did offer land to the palistinians, they refused and continued fighting.

[RYU]

Originally posted by gloznthedrk
i do not just watch us tv. there are many other forums for international learning, alot of which i pay attention to and hear. when i see and hear young palistians talk about they want the people (anyone living in isreal) to leave and that they will continue with suicide bombings for as long as they need to, i no longer have sympathy for them.

land does not belong to anyone, ever!

Iif I came to UR home and kicked UR @$$ out and killed what ever family members I wanted then wouldn't that be fucked up.

And it's kids saying that who's parents got ran over by a truck or whose mother got raped by an israeli soldier then shot.
Um I'd be pretty fucking pissed to if I was born into that life. Damn!?
SOmetimes people make me wonder.

I'm not for either side killing each other.
But stop taking acid and smoking the crack.

The Israelis have support in killing innocents with a wholde fucking army with tanks and missles.
The only think the Palestinians have to "DEFEND" themselves or "Retaliate" are sticks rocks...And yes C-4 that they have to strap to themselves. I don't think they're saying "Hey Amed U wanna go out there today with the c-4 U got for Ur B-day or should I."
Damn how grim desperate does some1 have to be to do that.
Look at there desperation.
I mean damn.
Please just look at both sides of the story,
It's Politics. The innocent people are sheep.
Don't be sheep.

I don't know what U have been reading or listening to but show some compassion. Have a heart.
I wish both sides didn't have this horror going on. But they do. Mainly cause there are a lot of sheep.
That are easly led, fooled by politicians or people that can use big words and say what they want even if it is a complete lie.
But because of being able to control the media this is what happens.

*Sigh*

Please forgive me if U feel I am targeting U. I'm not it's just your comments are sad and perpetuate ignorance....:sadblue:

[RYU]

Originally posted by gloznthedrk
isreali does not mean jewish, there are alot of christian and muslim israrelis too. the palestinians want the israrelis gone, all of them, not just the jewish.

isreal did offer land to the palistinians, they refused and continued fighting. Would mind siting the source U bestowed this knowledge on us from?:sadblue:

[RYU]

Originally posted by rajdeep
I'd like to know how many Palestinians and Isarelis would support the formation of a single state with both officers vying for a common election if they'd simply cease the mutual violence and taer down those security walls?

It's a radical idea but that's the only way I see peace coming to these lands if both shared them. Pakistan and India were doing great before they were divided in 1947, imagine how strong the economy of Pakistan would be with India's support and how safe India would be with Pakistan as an ally. At least this someone thinking in a constructive manner.:thumbsup:

[gloznthedrk]

Originally posted by RYU
Would mind siting the source U bestowed this knowledge on us from?:sadblue:

there are so many forums. theres interantional tv channels, international reporting, as well as even the net and chatting with people of diferent lands. even yahoo has international reports.

[Chicago]

Okay here's the situation past to present. Here is Palestine. Along comes the United States and the allies after ww2. We take palestine and make it Israel. Israel gathers up those Palestinians who haven't left of their own accord and puts them into ghettos. Those who have left move into the only strip of land left for them by the allies. Israel goes to war with Egypt and moves into that strip of land to access Egypt and never pulls out after the war is over. To this day the United Nations has passed edict after edict demanding that Isral move out of occupied Palestinian territories. Israel waves a big fat middle finger at the rest of the world and the United States finances them and their terror campaign in the middle east. Fuck Israel, fuck anyone who says I'm an antisemite for saying so, and FFFFUUUUUCCCCKKKK the United States for funding terror to begin with. Are we really surprised that those who are trod upon by the US's terror machine want to bring the fight to us now? The first rule in any war is to cut off the supply line of your enemy. And I'm sorry folks, no matter how you feel about 9/11 we are and always have been the agressors in the middle east.

[gloznthedrk]

this so has nothing to do with 9/11.
i think it was france and england that gave the land that now is isreal. the land came from egypt and jordan. irseal fought the in the six day war to keep it.
you may think isreal=jewish, but it doesnt. isreal is people, just as it is everywhere else. if palestine would share the land and work out a treaty, it would be alot better.
i really think the isrealis have to defend themselves alot. if you want to only look at isreal as a jewish state itmakesit that much of a worse theory. the jewish have been slaughtered and moved for thousands of years. its good they do finally have a place to call home, even if that means they have to defend it.

[Chicago]

But at what cost? The Israeli's keep saying that the Palestinians "Have to respect Israel's right to exist" but they have completely mtaken over and settled Palestinian land. And the land that Israel occupies was Palestine, get a fuckin map.

[genna]

Originally posted by Chicago
Okay here's the situation past to present. Here is Palestine. Along comes the United States and the allies after ww2. We take palestine and make it Israel. Israel gathers up those Palestinians who haven't left of their own accord and puts them into ghettos. Those who have left move into the only strip of land left for them by the allies. Israel goes to war with Egypt and moves into that strip of land to access Egypt and never pulls out after the war is over. To this day the United Nations has passed edict after edict demanding that Isral move out of occupied Palestinian territories. Israel waves a big fat middle finger at the rest of the world and the United States finances them and their terror campaign in the middle east. Fuck Israel, fuck anyone who says I'm an antisemite for saying so, and FFFFUUUUUCCCCKKKK the United States for funding terror to begin with. Are we really surprised that those who are trod upon by the US's terror machine want to bring the fight to us now? The first rule in any war is to cut off the supply line of your enemy. And I'm sorry folks, no matter how you feel about 9/11 we are and always have been the agressors in the middle east.

Sorry, dude, but your version of Middle East history is far from complete or accurate.

Ethnically, Palestinians and Jews are basically the same people. Even in Old Testament they come from brothers. But let's leave that alone for the moment. In fact, the word Palestinian simply denotes people that live in Palestine.

Jews have lived there and had semi-independent state there for thousands of years until Arabs took over all of the Middle East . Even after that, jews lived in Palestine. Includint through 1948 Later in 19th century, European powers colonized Middle East and England and Germany had most of the control over the area. England had control over Palestine.

So, after WW2, England lost its ability to support global Colonial Empire and they were "giving" the land away. India, Palestine, North Africa, etc..

English, feeling bad for all the Jews killed in part because of their errors, decided that Jews deserved their ancestoral land Palestine as a state. Thus, in 1948/9 Brits split Palestine to create 2 states, Arab state and Israel(a jewish state). As soon as that happened, all neighboring Arab countries declared a war and Jews were nearly pushed to see in first few days of Israel existance. However, with almost NO USA support(USA was prohibited from supplying weapons to Israel), but with a lot of private donations and French weapons, Israel survived and in a later war, they "won" some land from Jordan, Egypt and also occupied Arab-Palestinian territory.

The refugees fled to Jordan, but then they were kicked out of Jordan by then Jordan King because they were creating political trouble there and they fled to Lebanon after that.

Anyway, that's a short version of history. Israel had fought 5 major wars for its survival with ALL its neighbors and all of these wars(with exception of one that was preemptive) were defensive.

The history, religion, and political problem of the situation there is far more complex then Israel is bad, Palestinians are innocent victims(or vice versa). The only solution is 2-state solution, however, there are plenty of groups on both sides that DON"T WANT THAT. Why? because they want the war. War gives them political power, peace leaves them unemployed

[Chicago]

Lets try this again. There was palestine, now there is not palestine. Why do the palestinians need to respect Israel's sovereinty?

[Chicago]

English, feeling bad for all the Jews killed in part because of their errors, decided that Jews deserved their ancestoral land Palestine as a state. Thus, in 1948/9 Brits split Palestine to create 2 states, Arab state and Israel(a jewish state). As soon as that happened, all neighboring Arab countries declared a war and Jews were nearly pushed to see in first few days of Israel existance. However, with almost NO USA support(USA was prohibited from supplying weapons to Israel), but with a lot of private donations and French weapons, Israel survived and in a later war, they "won" some land from Jordan, Egypt and also occupied Arab-Palestinian territory.

Now slowly, read what you just wrote to the class. Mainly the part where it says that after the war Israel continued to occupy Palestinian occupied territory. Now see UN resolutions on said occupation. You can paint whatever picture you want. Israel continues to occupy and colonize land that isn't theirs. They continue to group palestinians into ghettos by gunpoint. And the US still sends them 6 billion dollars a year and all the military technology they can carry. Say what you want but I find it hard to condemn a people who are fighting for their right to survive as a people.

[RYU]

Originally posted by gloznthedrk
there are so many forums. theres interantional tv channels, international reporting, as well as even the net and chatting with people of diferent lands. even yahoo has international reports. Wow... That's great...I'm not trying to talk down to U or anything. But most people only get there info from pro USA/Israeli media. :thumbsup:

Although Ur perspective then confuses me. I'm an optimistic person and I try and my mind into what both sides are going through. And from what I see politics is causing this terror.
By that I mean the occupation of the israeli goverment of the palestinians land.

'm sick today and do not have the energy for these discussions. All I ask is for U to see the palestinians as human beings. People aren't born monsters U know!:raveon:

[genna]

Source of information is not relavant. Though i do get info from US and Arab media as well as from first hand experience in Israel.

US media is quite accurate in presenting facts. The analysis of the facts is a different issue. And honestly, US media is not very pro-Israel. But that's not even the point.

You have to analize the information yourself and interpret it based on experience(both human and political) and reasoning. And frankly, most people here or in US in general have no freaking idea what they are talking about when it comes to Middle East. REGARDLESS what side they are on.

Blind believe OR DISBELIEVE in what ANY medie tells you is not very useful.

You guys think that you can solve this problem by reasoning... you are mistaken. There is very little chance for reasoning between people that HATE each other and want to kill each other. Complicated by fact that WAR is a POLITICAL TREASURE... Politicians LOVE WARS.... why would they want to end it?.... BOTH SIDES

[DJLIPS]

Originally posted by genna
Sorry, dude, but your version of Middle East history is far from complete or accurate.

Ethnically, Palestinians and Jews are basically the same people. Even in Old Testament they come from brothers. But let's leave that alone for the moment. In fact, the word Palestinian simply denotes people that live in Palestine.

Jews have lived there and had semi-independent state there for thousands of years until Arabs took over all of the Middle East . Even after that, jews lived in Palestine. Includint through 1948 Later in 19th century, European powers colonized Middle East and England and Germany had most of the control over the area. England had control over Palestine.

So, after WW2, England lost its ability to support global Colonial Empire and they were "giving" the land away. India, Palestine, North Africa, etc..

English, feeling bad for all the Jews killed in part because of their errors, decided that Jews deserved their ancestoral land Palestine as a state. Thus, in 1948/9 Brits split Palestine to create 2 states, Arab state and Israel(a jewish state). As soon as that happened, all neighboring Arab countries declared a war and Jews were nearly pushed to see in first few days of Israel existance. However, with almost NO USA support(USA was prohibited from supplying weapons to Israel), but with a lot of private donations and French weapons, Israel survived and in a later war, they "won" some land from Jordan, Egypt and also occupied Arab-Palestinian territory.

The refugees fled to Jordan, but then they were kicked out of Jordan by then Jordan King because they were creating political trouble there and they fled to Lebanon after that.

Anyway, that's a short version of history. Israel had fought 5 major wars for its survival with ALL its neighbors and all of these wars(with exception of one that was preemptive) were defensive.

The history, religion, and political problem of the situation there is far more complex then Israel is bad, Palestinians are innocent victims(or vice versa). The only solution is 2-state solution, however, there are plenty of groups on both sides that DON"T WANT THAT. Why? because they want the war. War gives them political power, peace leaves them unemployed

True....Also, there never was a "Palestine" in the sense that there never was an offical state...Israel used to be called Palestine among other things, but not in the sense that it belonged to Palestinians...England tried in vain to partition the land to please both sides, but as you know, getting both sides to agree is imposible, England's policies from the Peel Report to tht White papers of 1920s and 30s were just a contradiciton to what they had previously stated...When they pulled out, it was an all out free for all..Egypt and Syria and Jordan tried to fight Israel in the 1940s, but Jordan had a secret pact with Israel...and Syria and Egypt didn't trust each other...the war solved nothing and thats how we had 50s,60s, 70s, and 82 war....I'm lucky enough that i'm currently taking Arab-Israeli dispute course down here at Tech....if anyone has any questions, i can find whatever question in my books, just give me time, cause i'm not a know it all....

[PAguy]

They bomb busses....come on. Burn em.

[DJLIPS]

Originally posted by PAguy
They bomb busses....come on. Burn em.

Israelis used terror too in order to gain their land and state, except they were called guerillas and freedom fighters :lame:

[genna]

Originally posted by DJLIPS
Israelis used terror too in order to gain their land and state, except they were called guerillas and freedom fighters :lame:

yeah, it always amuses me how one person's "terrorist" is another's "freedom fighter" :)

[genna]

oh, yeah. Everyone uses terror. why? because terror works. Had allways worked, works now, and will work in a future.



And war, or threat of, (with tanks and such) is just another form of terror

[PYVND]

I think when you have things, people just want to give you more (Israel). When you don't have things, no one wants to give you anything (Palestine). They think that if you deserved to have it, you would have had it. And if you don't have it, then you don't deserve more. It's a strange logic, but it's how it is for almost everything (jobs, chicks, etc.)Unfortunately, Sharon is an extremist, and so is Arafat. I don't think anything will change so long as that is going on. I have Jewish friends, and I have a friend whose father is from Palestine. I have heard both sides of the argument and at the end of the day, it is exhausting. Each side only wants revenge.

[genna]

PYVND, I must say that you seem to be very well versed in this situation and I'm quite impressed :) hehe.

There is a saying that i forgot, but paraphrasing would be "success breeds success". Simply put, people will give you more chances if they see that you have done well before. In case of Israel, inspite what is going on there, Israel is quite succesfull militarily, economically and even politically from a western point of view.

Actually, i don't really view Sharon or Arafat as extrimists. I view them more as victims of their positions and situation. I really do think that both of them WANT what is best for their people=peace, but neither can really provide it because of their own political situation as well as their perception by the oposite side.

[zartan]

"In case of Israel, inspite what is going on there, Israel is quite succesfull militarily, economically and even politically from a western point of view."

yes...but...a lot of that success is built on direct support from other countries (primarily US). israel would be a crater without our military assistance.

[genna]

Originally posted by zartan
"In case of Israel, inspite what is going on there, Israel is quite succesfull militarily, economically and even politically from a western point of view."

yes...but...a lot of that success is built on direct support from other countries (primarily US). israel would be a crater without our military assistance.

Actually, this is partially true. The first war Israel was in in late 40s, US gov. provided 0 military support. They were forbittten to do so. Most of support was private donations(from US donors mostly). That's a reason why Israel was flying Mirage Jets for very long time....

Only after that USA started providing support as a countermeasure to Soviet support for Israel neighbors.

So my statement on success is accurate. Only after USA saw Israel as a strong military ally, we started supporting them militarily

[RYU]

Originally posted by genna
Source of information is not relavant. Though i do get info from US and Arab media as well as from first hand experience in Israel.

US media is quite accurate in presenting facts. The analysis of the facts is a different issue. And honestly, US media is not very pro-Israel. But that's not even the point.

You have to analize the information yourself and interpret it based on experience(both human and political) and reasoning. And frankly, most people here or in US in general have no freaking idea what they are talking about when it comes to Middle East. REGARDLESS what side they are on.

Blind believe OR DISBELIEVE in what ANY medie tells you is not very useful.

You guys think that you can solve this problem by reasoning... you are mistaken. There is very little chance for reasoning between people that HATE each other and want to kill each other. Complicated by fact that WAR is a POLITICAL TREASURE... Politicians LOVE WARS.... why would they want to end it?.... BOTH SIDES Source of information is VERY important. The US media gives coverage for the israeli's in more of a good light/victim hence being pro israeli. As far as factual imformation. The media is gonna put a twist on faxts. From coverage editing to not showing the whole story the manipulate what they need for ratings and political ties....That's just a TRUE fact.

The rest of what U said I'm sorta in agreement. US public doesn't know shit about the middle east other than what they know of Apu from the simpson's. Reasoning would help. It's the goverment's who benefit and leaders from war. If we can go into Iraq and *Cough BULLSHIT* set things right why can't we go into Israel and Palestine? Simple our political ties and our own personal goals.
Anyone thinking that the US went to Iraq to help the people it's blinded. It's called a long term goal. And this was a recent US broadcast that someone from white house had stated that it was called "Operation Cheaper Oil"...Or something very close to that nature.... And Sorry to get off topic but I thought that would help to put some things in perspective.

[genna]

Originally posted by RYU
Source of information is VERY important. The US media gives coverage for the israeli's in more of a good light/victim hence being pro israeli. As far as factual imformation. The media is gonna put a twist on faxts. From coverage editing to not showing the whole story the manipulate what they need for ratings and political ties....That's just a TRUE fact.



Partly because i need to post enough for tonight, i'll continue this discussion :)

Source of info is only important to the FACTS being given. The analysis is NOT important and should be always treated with causion. US, Israily, Arab, Russian, whatever media will always have some sort of "bias" based on its own agenda, understanding, and culture.

Believe me, US media is one of the LEAST biased media in the world... and also there are various US media outlets to have all kinds of coverage... Unlike say Arab media where you will never find 1 good word about Israel or USA.. Hell, you will find more pro-Arab sentiments in Israely media then that.

On top of it, USA public always supports the underdog. Palestinians are underdogs in this fight. And USA Media reflects that. Short of FOX perhaps. Open a few major newspapers and count how many times palestinians are mentioned as victims and israelies as "agressors"(regardless of wether it is true or not) and you will see my point

9/11 changed a lot of prospective and it is not quite as obvious right now. But there is a good reason why Israel has not gone to real war and kicked everyones ass there and has given so many concessions to Arafat. That rason is USA.

Anyhow, you always filter information through your own perspective. As long as it is ACCURATE information(facts that is)...

And this creates a problem. Most Americans don't really give a damn about Israel or Palestinians beyond how it affects them: oil, terrorism, ect... which is more now then ever.... However, most Americans also don't understand the problem because we have no experience like this in many generations and most of Americans don't care enough to dig deep.... Problem is COMPOUNDED on this board because 90% of people here are politically BLACK/WHITE and too young(yeah, i sound like an old fart) to have enough general human experience to understand fact that NOBODY is innocent and there is no BLACK and WHITE... it's all a very dirty grey!

[gloznthedrk]

palistinians should be bombing the english and french....they're the ones who gave the land to make isreal! lol. then they should bomb egypt and jordan too, for not fighting england and france to keep the land! lol.

[PAguy]

Apu is from India...Not really the Middle East. Israel shoots missles at people who are thought to be part of a terrorist organization. Simply put, if you want to fight put up your dukes. Don't hide and hit when no one is looking. What's not right missles at terrorists or bombs on a school bus? You make the decision.

[DJLIPS]

Originally posted by PAguy
Israel shoots missles at people who are thought to be part of a terrorist organization... Simply put, if you want to fight put up your dukes. Don't hide and hit when no one is looking. What's not right missles at terrorists or bombs on a school bus? You make the decision.

Yeah, and those missles only strike the terrorist right?...And what about the terrorist tacticts used by Israel during the infatah?, and the tacticts they used to gain their land when England controlled it?..Terrorism is wrong, but has been use by everyone, including the US before the revolutionary war, remember the glorious tea parties?, well those English merchants and Tax collectors, and citizens that lived here were tared and feathered, and unlike cartoons, a feeling that is not pleasurable...Blowing up innocent people on a crowded bus is wrong, but its easier said from the outside looking in...Both sides are wrong in their policies, Sharon and his current coalition are as right wing and die hard zionist as you can get..And terrorism doesn't win you allies, so until something happens, this will continue forever...

[stormryder]

It's a never ending battle. Both sides claim historical claim to the land at issue and there really is no solution. It's the same problem with the Serbs and Ethnic Albanians in Serbia, or the Kurds and Turkish along the Iranian border. These conflicts date back centuries and no amount of killing is gonna solve them.

It's just a continuous cycle of violance based around natural resources of the area in question. Right now, Israel has control of the resources (water, etc.) and has the power to keep them. Hamas has the power to harass and kill, but not much else.

I really don't see a way out. I see stupidity in making a martyr of a man paralyzed in a wheelchair. But the battle will never end

[znrg3k]

How does one justify it? I don't really think you can, if they try their answer is purely BS... surely they'd try to cover it up and see that it won't make headlines.. maybe someone needs to tell them what they believe in is a farce, but I bet that person would get shot too. I don't think you can reason with these religious extremists/radicals... i.e. the israeli gov't and the hamas.. maybe it's best to just blow up the Middle East. Religion is meant to be peaceful... this is far from peaceful - what's going on is closely associated with satanism if you ask me, BUT if this were God's intention He's quite sadistic and not the benevolent one we thought He was. Human kind is just burying itself into a deeper hole over 'religion' - if it were such a good thing why does it cause so much misery, death, pain, and destruction?

[hemi318]

a lot of my family is from israel and they have had to protect themselves all their life from palestinians trying to kill them from young boys and girls throwing rocks shooting guns at them and even homemade bombs the israelis have to take a tough stance on that kind of terrorism its very easy for us to condemn the israelis for their actions but until we live in an enviroment like that i dont think we have the right to pass judgement

[Don Miguel Lush]

a lot of my family is from israel and they have had to protect themselves all their life from palestinians trying to kill them from young boys and girls throwing rocks shooting guns at them and even homemade bombs the israelis have to take a tough stance on that kind of terrorism its very easy for us to condemn the israelis for their actions but until we live in an enviroment like that i dont think we have the right to pass judgement

Punctuation is your friend, don't repel it.